Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Perhaps 6-10 years ago someone asked about Spitfire(s) on French airfields in May-June 1940. As you know the Spit was still considered secret and too precious to be risked on the continent where the German army was on the rampage. Nevertheless one or two photo-reconnaissance Spits, possibly more, were briefly based on French airfield(s) to be able to penetrate more deeply over German territory for strategic reconnaissance.

What follows is from the French book "Le Morane-Saulnier MS 406", a very comprehensibe monograph published 1998 by Lela Presse (12 authors), page 142:

On June 1, 1940 the French fighter unit GC III/7 landed at Coulommiers (-airfield) at 7.15 hours. The RAF was there already with a squadron of "Blenheims" flying night missions and one reconnaissance "Spitfire" "fiercely guarded in a hangar, nobody is able to come nearer. All these aircraft disappeared discretely on June 4."

The city of Coulommiers is exactly East of Paris at a distance of about 50 km. That's at least one airfield (there is still a small aerodrome near Coulommiers (except if it was removed recently), NW of the city. I think at least one PR Spit (possibly the same one) was based elsewhere in France for a few days in May, more in the northern part of the country - the fine French review "Icare" mentioned this in one of the 17 or 19 issues on the 1940 French Campaign.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

P9331 of 212 Sqn based at Meaux suffered a glycol leak on 6 June 1940 and landed at Reims-Champagne where it was abandoned and later captured. By this stage they Luftwaffe had one or two Spitfires but not a PR one

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Rof120,

The Special Survey Flight and 212 Sqn operated PR Spitfires from the following French airfields during 1940:

Bar-le-Duc, Coulommiers, Lille/Seclin, Nancy, Meaux/Villenoy, Le Luc, Bastia, Ajaccio and Orléans/Bricy.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

- Wow! Many thanks Andy. Obviously Le Luc (far in SE-France near the Mediterrenean), Bastia and Ajaccio (both in Corsica) were used for missions over Italy.

Do you happen to know how many PR Spitfires were used?

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

F/Lt. Louis Douglas "Tug" Wilson force-landed P9331 at Champagne. He made his way to Poitiers where a ground crew repaired a damaged and abandoned Fairey Battle L5360 RH-C of 88 Sqn. The ground crew then drew cards for a place on the aircraft and Wilson flew four of them back to Heston.

Here are some photos of P9331 that seem to indicate it was stripped by the Germans for replacement parts. Perhaps its engine had seized. Note the tear drop "blister" on the canopy of PR Spitfires.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=674

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=675

And these photos show P9331 abandoned in a different hangar whose broken windows let in the snows of the winter of 1940/41?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=676

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=677

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Rof120,

Indeed you are correct, Le Luc, Bastia and Ajaccio were used for sorties covering Italian targets.

Also just to clarify Bar-le-Duc was used only in 1939 and most sorties from Nancy and Lille were flown prior to May 1940.

I can find eleven different Spitfires that were used by the Special Survey Flight or 212 Sqn for operational sorties during 1939 to June 1940. For the May-June period nine Spitfires were used.

Hope the information is of use.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

I understood that the PR Spitfires were taken from a Turkish order, presumably had different equipment to "normal" fighter Spitfires so used for PR, Meteorological etc Flights rather than convert them to fighter standard....

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Not the ones used this early in the war. They were initially modified from the standard fighter version (Ia) by the Heston Flight/No.2 Camouflage Unit/PDU and used for operational trials/development. The PDU/PRU were a bit of a law unto themselves, especially in 1939 and 1940 and even when the PRU became a more 'formal' unit it was still rather independently minded.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

NUMBERS OF Spitfires in France, May-June 1940
 

- Wow again! Many more thanks.

I never imagined that so many PR Spitfires were sent to France. I would have guessed 2-3. I suspect that Air Marshal Dowding was not aware of this "waste" of his best fighter aircraft for he would have opposed this with great energy. Obviously the Spitfire-secrets, if any, couldn't really be preserved for one example or more could fall into "rude German hands" any time, which indeed was the case (two AC if I understood the above details correctly, possibly more). So the remarkable RR Merlin engine and its interesting supercharger, and the whole design of this aircraft type, were no secret to the enemy already weeks before the Battle of Britain started. In particular climb rate, ceiling and top speed were of interest. I'm curious to know whether this information was circulated to the German fighter units.

On the other hand at least the German top brass was convinced that their equipment was vastly better than anything abroad including in Britain, so that they didn't need to bother. It seems that most German fighter pilots, or all of them, were painfully surprised by the Spitfire's excellent performance, so they were probably not informed after all. (See, among others, Galland's remarks in his first book, "The First and the Last").

Most authors mention that the first Spitfires were based in France only after the landings in Normandy in June 1944. Well, this is true as far as fighters are concerned.

"Hope the information is of use."

- Oh yes, certainly. I find it very interesting myself even though I had asked this question to answer another guy's very old question at last. At the time we were hardly able to give a satisfactory answer.

So many thanks again.

Re: NUMBERS OF Spitfires in France, May-June 1940
 

Rof120,

You have to bear in mind that at no time were there ever eleven or nine Spitfires in France at the same time. 212 Sqn was basically the overseas element of the PDU and pilots and machines were interchangeable. Probably the most Spitfires that were in France at one time was half a dozen or so.

Regards Dowding, it was he who Cotton, the driving force behind the formation of the 'PRU', persuaded to supply two Spitfires in 1939 for his (Cotton's) experiment. By the time of the invasion of France the experiment had proved so successful that people more senior than Dowding were pushing for results.

Cheers

Andy Fletcher

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Don't forget they were not fighters and therefore not Dowding's

Recce-Spitfires not fghters
 

Oh yes, of course I am fully aware of this but the basic aircraft was the same with a few changes to get a PR-Spit: removing the eight guns (or did they retain a few for self-defence? I don't think so.), canopy with bulges and obviously some good cameras. In theory Fighter Command's C-in-C could have refused to see several precious Spitfire-airframes (with engines) changed into unarmed recce AC. At the time (1939) Spitfires were precious few and hotly wanted by FC.

These Spits were not Fighter Command aircraft, this is true, but they could not be delivered secretly to other units than to FC squadrons without Dowding being aware of this.

Re: NUMBERS OF Spitfires in France, May-June 1940
 

- Perhaps they conned poor defenceless Dowding by asking first for two Spits only. Later they raised the number but it was too late to say "No" for the reason you mentioned.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Regards Dowding being aware of Spitfires being diverted to the PDU I would say he was fully aware. During the period in question the PDU, the parent unit Spitfires operating in France belonged to, was sub-ordinate to Fighter Command for administrative purposes. So personnel and equipment came from Dowding's Command. However, Fighter Command had no operational control over PR Spitfires in the UK or the Continent.

As to whether he agreed with this diversion of resources or even had any say I don't know. As stated previously by the time of the German invasion of France much higher authority than Dowding was taking notice of what was being achieved and resources were to be allocated accordingly whether AOC Fighter Command agreed or not.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

I don't think that there was anything special about the supercharger on the Mk.I that would have come as any great surprise to the Germans. Indeed Hooker considered it less than ideal and his improvements were adopted on later marks. However this involved superior airflow from careful shaping not some magic gadget.

The French were given one Spitfire with an eye on issuing a significant order for them. Presumably the Germans got that one too.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

X

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

A book about fighter aircraft engines is coming in April:

https://www.calum-douglas.com/curren...rsepower-race/

The next book is about turbocharger design:

Contents - a bit small

https://www.calum-douglas.com/contents/

Aero-engines, superchargers
 

Thanks Ed. 1st one looks quite authoritative. 2nd one too but yes, information is scarce for the moment.

As usual with anglo-american and even German authors they ignore the designs - sometimes remarkable ones - achieved in other countries. 1940 French aero-engines (Hispano-Suiza in-line engines and Gnome-Rhône radials) used in actual combat were less than ideal except for Dewoitine 520s (HP 12 Y 45) but greatly improved designs were in the pipe (in particular HP 12 Y 51 and HP 12 Z) and, as I mentioned above, would have been deployed approximately from August, 1940 on and German fighter pilots, in particular, would have been at a great disadvantage with their ol' 109s and DB 601s. See books "Les moteurs aéronautiques français" (2 volumes), Docavia IIRC. At least two new French fighter designs which existed already 1940 were able to fly faster than 700 km/h (435 mph) - Dewoitine D.551 and Bloch 157, slower than that with full military equipment (guns, ammo, etc.) - about 675 km/h but just like in all other countries improvements would have been made after the first deliveries. No doubt they were carefully looked at by the Germans (especially the superlative engines) at Lechfeld, Daimler-Benz', BMWs etc.

In the USSR as well as in Switzerland French aero-engines were used, made under license and strongly improved in the course of the years as they would have been in France too given time, reaching high power values like 1,600 ch (hp?) for the latest Soviet fighters with in-line engines (Yak, MiG). In the USSR tens of thousands of these engines, possibly well over 100,000, were produced (radials too IIRC) plus thousands in Switzerland. Their users were fully satisfied with these engines and never tried to make and use other ones. So the blindness of almost all anglo-american authors for everything which is not made "in English" or in German (they love to have these bad guys to look like heroes) is really very annoying. In particular Soviet and Swiss experts were just as good as others.

Of course I am not criticizing you Ed. You're a very knowledgeable man and ready to help. Thanks again.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

I am in contact with the author of the book about aero-engines. He has spent many years in archives in Europe and elsewhere. Perhaps you can share what you know on his Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/TheSecretHorsepowerRace/

Your sensitivity about certain things is partly understandable and partly not.

Regards,
Ed

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

I'm afraid that there is a world of difference between having highly promising engines under development, or even in early production, but quite something else to get these into production and then into aircraft and then into service in significant numbers. Compare these promises (for that is what they are) with the historical development of similar engines elsewhere. For example at the same time the British had the Sabre and Vulture already flying in fighter and bomber airframes with production lines established: the Griffon and Centaurus were not so far behind. The Germans had the DB603 running... I agree that there is no reason to doubt the capabilities of the French industry, but equally there is no reason to doubt that they would have been likely to run into very similar problems as faced by other nations. And the service timescales are always longer than the ambitions.

Aero-engines 1940
 

Ed West:

Your sensitivity about certain things is partly understandable and partly not.

- Well, this is how YOU feel.

I'll give you an example of a totally different kind because this can help to understand certain reactions: in almost all English books on the 1940 French Campaign the story ends on June 3, 1940 because the British troops had been saved and brought back to their grateful moms. The fact that 40,000 crack French troops hold the pocket perimeter to the end against all German attacks to make this escape possible, and very unwillingly were taken prisoners eventually, is often "forgotten" (not by all British authors, though). After the successful evacuation there is nothing more to report about exactly 3 more weeks of fighting. All French people who are aware of this typically English behaviour laugh angrily: "The rosbifs (with roastbeef-looking faces) will never change. Everything for them, nothing for others". Most French people think that the UK let down the French at Dunkerque, which is not correct, but was this evacuation necessary in the first place? In any case to almost all British "historians" the French Campaign, or the Western Campaign if you prefer and love German phrases, ended on June 3, 1940 instead of June 24. No wonder that people get a bit touchy after about 20 centuries of this.

- Very authoritative, interesting and true. The fact remains that both main French makers of aero-engines had designed absolutely superlative engines by June 1940 and mass-production of these - at least with Hispano-Suiza inline engines - had actually started: Hispano-Suiza 12 Y 51 (1 000 ch) and 12 Z (1 200 ch). Dewoitine fighters would have been equipped with the 12 Y 51 from aircraft number 601 on, hence D.523s instead of D.520s. The production of D.52X fighters would have reached 300 per month already in September, 350 in November. On June 22 or so 402 D.520s had been delivered to the Fr. AF so that D.523s with the new engine would have rolled off from the end of July on (top speed 570 km/h like the Me 109 E). After about one more month the 12 Y Z engine would have followed at the end of August (top speed over 610 km/h, faster than anything the Germans could muster). So these engines were perfectly developed and could be used in combat. Only the Allied defeat prevented this from happening. The reproduced data was published in the already-mentioned superlative book "l'aviation de chasse française 1918-1940", by Raymond Daniel and Jean Cuny (collection Docavia - Éditions Larivière).

Same thing in other countries like Switzerland and Russia, which developed the HP engines quite quickly and effectively, reaching high power values and producing tens of thousands of them (USSR), possibly even more. These engines were no dreams, they were reality and the Germans paid a high price thanks to these French-Soviet engines.

It's not about the French only but about all other countries in which aero-engines were designed or further developed and mass-produced. There are excellent experts in other countries than England and the USA: speaking English is NOT mandatory to be clever and able to design aircraft and engines of world class. Besides, Szydlowski, a remarkable scientist working in France who designed many superlative devices or engines, was not French but Polish (at least at the beginning) and highly valued by the French. IIRC he created the incredibly successful family of turbo-engines for French helicopters: Alouette II and III and all the other types which followed. They were emulated in all other countries producing helicopters: now they all are equipped with turbines too. Same thing for the very successful light jet engines made by Turboméca in France, which were and are equipping light jet aircraft all over the world and of course in France too: Alpha Jet for example and many more.

The French-made jet engines equipping French fighters after WW II are not bad either. At the start they were designed with the help of some German experts, which was just fair beause the Germans occupying France for 4 years had forbidden any advanced design work in this country, hence the technical gap. Ouragan and Mytère IV fighters were possibly just OK but then - with strongly improved French jet engines - the whole world simply watched Mirage IIIs (Israeli AF) and all the following types in awe, including today's Rafale, which is giving a very good account of itself all the time, not least thanks to an excellent jet engine (and to French avionics). In Sweden it's a bit different (only 6-7 million inhabitants when the row of remarkable SAAB jet fighters started with Draken and also SK 105 IIRC), now about 9-10 million inhabitants after strong immigration (still not a great power) but this country, too, has designed a whole series of world-class combat aircraft: Draken, Lansen, Viggen, now Gripen in various versions up to E I think (exported to several countries in the world). China, too, has made a good start in the last few decades. So good stuff can be designed AND MASS-PRODUCED in non-English-speaking countries too. So please stop sneering at the whole world (over 7 billion people) except those whose language is English or "English" (they total about 0.4 billion people). US and British engines are good or excellent (not always… see the P-51 story), others are excellent too. Oh, I almost forgot the Czechs: I have great admiration for the Czeh achievements in military hardware and in many other scientific and technical fields.

Many countries in the world have proved that they are able to design good aircraft (often not in the top categories like jet transport AC and fighters) but aero-engines are obviously another matter. With few exceptions only countries having a fairly strong industry, population (at least about 50-70 million) and scientific level are able to design good aero-engines, in particular very powerful ones. It seems to be a matter of financial ability and of a scientific and technical population pool large enough to make this possible. Even Sweden, which possesses great ability in the design of top-class jet fighters and has a top-modern industry, has to use jet engines from abroad, which were/are modified in Sweden for specific Swedish needs (Volvo Flygmotor AG - Volvo Aero-Engines Corp.). Probably the main reason for this is the cost.

Re: Aero-engines 1940
 

SAAB was very quick on the draw and managed to aquire drawings and technical details via Austria already in 1945-46. The first jet fighter built in Sweden was SAAB 21R/RA which was a rather crude conversion of the J 21A.
What made headlines was the next model on line, the J/A 29 'Flygande Tunnan' (Flying Barrel) which was roughly equivalant of the Sabre, MiG-15 and the Mystère. Both the A/J 32 Lansen and J 35 Draken came later.

What is less known is that the company STAL was very much ahead with the advanced Dovern jet engine which was intended for both the Lansen and Draken. However cost increases, technical problems etc made delays inevitable and a very agressive Rolls Royce campaign resulted in the Avon being chosen instead. There are some "insiders" who claim a substantial palm greasing took place as well....

Basically all jet engines have been built since then under licence by Flygmotor (later Volvo-Flygmotor) and where afterburners have been needed they were designed locally in Sweden. Even the Americans are said to have learned a bit "how to do it"!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Thanks Stig - interesting!

I had forgotten the "Tunnan" ("Barrel"), the fat-looking flying barrel which was Flygvapnet's (Swedish Air Force's) fighter for many years and I was not aware of the very first Swedish jet.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

Return to the topic and cease making bigoted remarks such as "typically English behaviour" (which say more about their author than their intended target) if you want this thread to continue.

Anyone who wants to start a thread about post-war jet development, please do so in the appropriate section of the forum.

Re: Spitfire in France, May-June 1940
 

rof120 -

Write that book, or series of books, and let the rest of the world know. OK?

I am not English, though I speak it. And yes, there were significant developments by the French and by other Europeans working in their own countries or, for example, France. My research shows that going to France was sometimes more sensible because some facilities already existed there. So why spend money trying to duplicate them in your home country? The Swiss contribution to engine development is little known. I could go on.

So, if you want to post here, fine - within the rules of course. Otherwise, share your knowledge, I urge you.

Ed