Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Good Morning,

I punched in "Me 262 Innsbruck" on google and found a photo that is new to me on the reddit.com site:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=680

This is the first colour view of the 1133xx series camouflage I have seen. What are the two upper colours?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Photo is colorized, here is original

https://i.imgur.com/pPEScPu.jpg

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hello Matolion,

Thank you for the original and its high resolution. The background detail leads me to believe that this Me 262 is the easternmost jet on the south side of the airfield.

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

A small problem. 360 or 368?

If 360 then it is W.Nr.112360. If 368 then it is W.Nr.113368

https://i.imgur.com/5zSnmmp.jpg

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Agreed! To my eye, the outside curvature of the last numeral still looks like an eight. I think we'll have to wait for a photo showing the entire werknummer.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi Guys,

I believe too it is 113368.
But one little point.
What is that "Weisse 13" we can see in the background, under 113368 ? I never seen it before.
Any comment about it? Thanks.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

It seems like 13, but the number is "weird". Poorly painted. I hope that it will appear another photo

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

See my attachment above. It's cristal clear, except if you don't want to see it.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

I am not saying it is not there. I just seem badly painted. The problem is that the number 13 has never been mentioned so far (what I know), so I have no idea which Me 262 belongs to

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

... And now it is "75 years after" like Dan said me ;)

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi Franck,

There is definitely something there. To my eye, it is a "white 15" with some extraneous white for some reason. Its position is lower than that of JV44 white numerals whose tops match that of the balkenkreuz. Perhaps an ex-JG 7 aircraft from München-Riem?

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Some color archive footage which I hope will be useful:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_WOSjnDVps

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

To the best of my knowledge, it is a completely NEW Me 262 which has never been reported. Congratulations and well done Franck!

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Thank you. You are welcome.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi Jim,

Ofw Rudolf Nielinger of JV44 wrote in his Flugbuch, that he transferred Me262 "White 15" on 28. April 45 from Munich-Riem to Salzburg-Maxglan.
This confirms that the Me262 in the background of the Innsbruck-photo is not "White 15" but rather "White 13" of JV44, as Franck suggests.

KR Karl

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi Karl,

If that's the case, then I have to agree with Matolion that the "13" looks weird.

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Gents,

Back in 1998 I studied the well-known “München-Riem Me 262 Listing” of 26 April 1945 and based on available information determined there were twelve instances where incorrect Werknummern were transcribed in the document. These Werknummern all fell outside the known series listings but when corrected fit into the various series without duplicating a pre-existing number:

Listed versus Correct – Affinity
112712 = 111712 – DHL for conversion
112714 = 111714 – DLH for conversion
113704 = 111704 – JV 44
113712 = 111712 – JV 44
113714 = 111714 – JV 44
111369 = 112369 or 113369 – DLH for conversion
113722 = 111722 – JV 44
113723 = 111723 – JV 44
130983 = 130083 – recycled aircraft Memmingen-Industrie
500389 = 500489 – DLH for conversion
501707 = 500707 – JV 44
510513 = 500513 – JV 44

Note that two aircraft appear twice; once in the JV 44 column and again in the DLH column, i.e. 111712 (112712 & 113712) and 111714 (112714 & 113714).

In Dan O’Connell’s 2005 opus, “113369” is listed as “Me 262 A: Found under camouflage by US forces at Innsbruck Austria. (afo)” In his book there is no listing for “112369” that is a legitimate Werknummer.

Additionally, the camouflage pattern and mottling around the engine nacelles fits well with 113xxx series machines.

Therefore, with this photograph confirming the location and the machine’s Werknummer partially visible – 11(2/3)36(8/9) – I believe the available information supports the assignment of WNr.113369 to this Me 262.

Cheers,

David

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hello David,

To the best of my knowledge the original transcription of the JV44 inventory on 26 April 1945 can be found in David E. Brown, etal., Me 262 KG(J) and KG units in Czech Territory, (JaPo, 2010), p. 64, and also Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations, (JaPo, 2012), p. 48.

To make so many mistakes, it is likely that the transcriber was doing his best to make out numerals from a blurred copy, and it would be unwise to assume that all his errors were limited only to those involving werknummern that fell outside of the known series listings. Therefore, I would suggest that the transcriber could have mistaken a blurred '8' for a '5'; when he wrote '113365'.

In Dan O'Connell's opus, "113368" is listed as "Me 262 A-1a. Found at Innsbruck-Hötting, Austria, by US troops. Possibly delivered to JV44. [afo]" "[afo]" is also the same source of information for his entry on "113369": "J. Richard Smith and Eddie Creek, correspondence September 2000."

From Smith & Creek, Me 262 Volume 4, (Classic, 2000), p. 737 and O'Connell, p. 219 for Wednesday, 2 May 1945: "A total of 22 Me 262s from JV44 were flown to Innsbruck but seven crashed on landing …" This suggests that fifteen intact Me 262s should have been found at Hötting.

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi Jim,

We will never know exactly how the list was created – transferred from existing paperwork, visual inspection, verbal reporting, a combination of these? Regardless, a number of obvious errors can be identified and as such I concede the possibility for transcription errors for legitimate Werknummern. However, I find it most interesting that 10 of the 12 were errors in the Werknummerserien (first three digits) and only two in the remainder. Indeed, for the former nine of the ten were with the third digit. Something was going on. But what? Given the times it was sort of like re-arranging deck chairs on the RMS “Titanic”.

So, on the balance of probabilities and the information available, I lean more towards my original interpretation of 113369 and what is observed in the photo. Until such time a new photo is discovered of course!

Regarding Smith and Creek’s original source for information on 113368 and 113369 at Innsbruck, it is a mystery. We know one of them was there via the photograph, and possibly both. Perhaps Dan can enlighten us if a document was referenced in the correspondence.

With respect to the Me 262 seen under its tail, I agree that the number is a “13” and believe this was the replacement aircraft for Steinhoff’s “White 13” in which he crashed on 18 April. Though at a distance, the placement of the “13” on this machine is a bit haphazard and does not match the position of numbers observed on known JV 44 machines applied in late March – early April.

Best,

David

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hi David,

I have given the enlargement of the werknummer a long hard look and despite the outer curves I see that the inner space matches the inner space of the six. So you flip a "6" upside down and you get a "9". I must concede that is "what is observed in the photo"! Good eye!

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Jim,

No, YOUR good eye. I was musing about playing with the number but it was late at night. It was your efforts that confirmed it. Thanks for sharing this with us. Now we have to find 113368!

Cheers

David

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

I think this may be the location of the possible White 13. I say possible because there are no clear photos of White 13.

There was a White 12 at the field, but I can't positively identify its location.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Good work!

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

I like that; pretty much.
White 12 was the other side of the field ... Along the tree line.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Hello Revi16,

Thank you for the two pictures.

Your locating of White 13 allowed me to find another, albeit distant, picture of it in Nick Beale's Ghost Bombers page 182 in the top right photo. White numerals can be seen in front of the balkenkreuz.

Secondly, Franck is correct. American troops parked White 12 facing north beside Red 1 in the meadow with the poplars along Kranebitten Allee on the northside of the airfield.

Photos taken on 9 June by members of the 454th Bombardment Squadron [Smith & Creek, Me 262 Volume 4, p. 806] show White 12 was originally among six Me 262s crowded along the Inn River (including 111751 and 111712) with a hydro tower in the background. I found these pictures last week while using Google Chrome to search "Me 262 Hotting". Scrolling down, I found sample pictures of aircraft at Hotting in the E-Books, Broken Me 262 Jet Fighters Part 7, Part 8 and Part 9 by David Myhra PhD. The pictures I refer to are in Part 8.

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Not a place I'd have thought to look (I'm far more interested in the Ju 87s and Fw 190s). Here is a scan from my copy of the photo — this is as good as it gets unfortunately. Also attached is a Google Earth image from 2011 taken when the sun was low, so you can clearly see the shadows of the electricity poles where the power line still runs across the southern perimeter of the field by the River Inn.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Thank you Nick.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Thank you, Nick. The photos of Hotting and the Ju 87s and Fw 190s in Ghost Bombers are very useful in determining the placements of the Me 262s.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Possibly, but it's the Ju 87s and Fw 190s that are the really interesting ones.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Define "interesting"!

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

How about …

NSG 9 aircraft which had been fighting since March 1944. NSG 9 progressed through four aircraft types (Ca. 314, CR. 42, Ju 87 D, Fw 190 F) and went from visual to radar-guided bombing. After June 1944 it represented the only Luftwaffe offensive airpower on the Italian front.

JV 44 was 4 weeks of operations and some postwar myth-making by Adolf Galland — all that "squadron of aces" nonsense when much of the personnel consisted of ordinary NCOs and some of the injured/exhausted aces weren't in operational roles (see Robert Forsyth's book).

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Nick,
I rose to the bait. I would say "point taken!" if we were only taking into account unit remnants at Hotting which is a very narrow frame of reference. For those of us who find the Me 262 operations of all units fascinating, even those of JV44, I will only agree to disagree.

Franck,

You were right. It is a "white 13" in Nick's photo whose top matches that of the balkenkreuz, therefore most likely from JV44.

best regards,

Jim

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

My Pleasure Jim.

Matolion,
Thanks very much for the beautiful picture you posted. Nice and useful.
Can you give us the source of it?

Regards,
Franck.

PS: How much Fw190s found/left behind at Hötting please ? Nick ?

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

I wish I knew. Probably not more than about five because NSG 9 never had many and some were lost or abandoned in Italy. There were some in my book and the attached photo (E8+CB of the Stab) came up in a discussion here in 2013.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Thank you Nick.

Re: Colourized photo of Me 262 WNr. 113368 at Innsbruck-Hötting
 

Might as well add this vid here as well. Added from another post. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7refsk