Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a FBA Type based at Dunkerque as shown by the D5 on the nose following capture by the Germans at :


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Seebrugge-Be...kAAOSwwlteZ~sz


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Clint
This is the 150 hp FBA which post war was designated type H

Unfortunately French sources does not identify which s/n this aircraft had, but on 15 May 1917 two FBA 150hp while being escorted by one Sopwith (probably a Baby) were attacked by three Friedrichshafen from Zeebrügge.
All three French aircraft were shot down, with both FBA captured (beside D.5 also D.12). The D.5 was flown by QM Boucand and Mot Philibert while the D.12 was flown by QM Chauvignat and EV 1 Carle. All four being made POW.
The Sopwith D.21 managed to shoot down (at least claimed to) one of the Freidrichhafens before SM Vigneau himself was shot down by Mankish and Christiansen.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Russian FBA flying boat captured by German forces and exhibited ar Delka:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Germany-WWI...kAAOSwxBNenKJo


The Russian Navy operated both FBA B & C types. Can anyone say which variant is shown here?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

I have very little on the FBA in Russia, but I believe initially (type A, B and C) the main difference were their engines. Type B had a more angular fin/rudder while the type C had a more rounded one

These early FBA used some four-five different engines and before the Type H came on the line, there was basically very little difference unless you get a perfect photo.

It also seems the French Navy identified these aircraft with their engine power only and French historians differ what they should be called.

For instance, while Gerhard Hartmann says Aviation Maritime bought both type B and C, (also stated by Soltan/Davilla) Lucien Morareau claims they were only type C regardless of engine power.

The serial number on this one is not French (assuming the French Navy used FBA c/n as their serial numbers) and is I believe a Russian Naval one.

Adding all things up I believe the aircraft is a type C. While the engine is very difficult to see I think I see a more curved fin....

BTW, it is quite odd that Zoltan/Davilla says the Russians bought exactly the same number of type B and C, and on top of that also built exactly the same number of each under licence....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the input. I hadn't previously noted Soltan and Dasvilla gave the same totals.Which given they write that the Russians purchased the type Bs in 1914 and equally that the type C prototype didn't fly until 1915 and also very little other information on the Type C in Russia, the aircraft shown mightt be a Type B if we assume the information for the type C is erroneous? Given the greater information provided on the type B by them, that seems logical at least.



With regard to the serial number not being french, so by implication, a fair probability that this is a licence built machine?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Stig,


Looks like I was completely wrong see:


http://wio.ru/ww1a/fba.htm


I should have done the search first!


So Type C it is!


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are the following photos of Italian operated FBA Type H flying Boats:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/RARA-AVIAZIO...0AAOSwefldBNiN


FBA 414 known to have been operated by 255 Squadriglia



https://www.ebay.it/itm/RARA-AVIAZIO...UAAOSw0A9aS4Yp


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of an Italian FBA Type H serial 4313 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/1917-WW1-ZON...EAAOSw38dfEC5-


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of Italian operated FBA Type H flying boats at:


FBA Type H 5588?


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...oAAOSwebdfF9Id


FBA Type H 3151


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...EAAOSwk1VfF9Ey


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Two typical examples of why I hate the way both the French and Italians painted their digits 3 and 5! :mad:

5588? Well you tell me....no way to determine that here.
3151? I agree, but it is only just about possible to make that out.

Got nothing in writing on the Italian FBAs. Do you?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


I have the WDF by Varriale for the Italian FBA serials.There are alas several possibilities for an FBA Type H serial beginnning 5 and ending in 88.Which is why I've put a question mark. But blowing up the image I felt (and it is no more than that) that the second digit resembled the first. Still I wouldn't wager the house on it :)


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hmmm

I had forgotten I had that one. Looking at what Paolo Varriale says, I can see why you choose 5588.

I confess I have mixed feelings about Varriale's writings.

Check page 36, middle column, below the tables. There he says "c/n 123, Navy serial 456 and 'common' serial 7890, quoted in documents at different time, etc, but are in fact one and the same FBA".

Fair enough, but, none of these numbers appear in any of the table columns as far as I can see! So either all these quoted numbers are rubbish, or the data in the tables are at least questionable.

He is also trying to explain the rather complicated Italian serial number system up to September 1916 by somehow starting in the middle, which in fact only raises a lot of questions.

He refuses to explain the serial number 18 which was part of a batch of 48 aircraft ordered in June 1916 (two batches 12 + 36). Why would any sane military individual number the first aircraft 18 and the other 47 as 401 - 447?
Makes no sense at all and at least I want to ask why that was so. Number 18 is a very, very early number and must belong to a very early aircraft used by the Marina, so was it reused for some reason?

There are moments when I wish editors were more on their feet and asked more questions than they actually do.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


I can only sympathise. Looking at the sources used in WDF 135 Voisin III/V at war one of the sources quoted is Gregory Alegi and Paolo Varriale Italian WWI aircraft serial numbers, unpublished work. I can only say given the information available particularly in works the latter has published himself it is amazing how errors have proliferated across a range of WDF as far as Italian serial numbers are concerned. I otherwise enjoy the WDF series, but this one aspect is shockingly poor.Still I guess that makes working on Italian serials on this board with you more rewarding.


I admit I don't know very much about the seperate Regia Marina number system. It would appear though that it was abandoned at some stage? as later FBA serials fit into the regular serial system?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Yes Clint

I believe there is a very good reason for it to be unpublished,,,,
The more they dig in old archives in Italy, the more they find of course and the "facts" in older publications are transferred into "faulty educated guesses".

In all fairness to the authors there are very few dedicated researchers in Italy compared to let's say England or Germany. That means a huge task falls on everyone trying to do something about it.

Also, both Alegi and Varriale say quite clearly that many of their stated serial batches are unverified etc, so perhaps we shouldn't complain. We certainly don't contribute much ourselves, do we? :o

Perhaps we should ask for better editors instead? :) The mistake on page 36 would in such a case have been discovered before publication.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


Your points are valid with regard to the small number of researchers and the role of editors and I totally agree without the intrepid band of researchers we'd all be nowhere.


However what I find disappointing is when the same author publishes incorrect material in a later work, where he already had more accurate information piblished in an earlier work. . WDF 124 was published in 2007, whereas I Reparti came out in 1999. Yet and I'm only going to provide one example where there are others - In WDF 124 there is a SIAI built batch of FBA Type H running 2018-2027, but in I Reparti Varriale has FBA of this batch running to 2041. Moreover a unit is provided 1 Sqa Idrovolante for 2041, which I believe we can regard as stronger evidence than just the list of serials in the WDF. Units are provided for other known serials for machines between 2027 and 2041 too. So while good editing is needed, the writer really ought to check his earlier work as well.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Well Clint

Part of the answer is provided in column three on page 36 in WDF 124.
The FBA types seems to be intermixed with each other and no real answer is provided so far in the remaining documents found.

Varriale is most likely very aware of what he wrote in 1999 compared to 2007. Maybe he tried too much but had too little space? Also his primary language is Italian...

What would have been much better would have been a WDF about all the FBA flying boats, but then the format would not fit and a special would have been needed.

Unfortunately it seems editing is no longer "in fashion" and only Producers are what counts. There are plenty of books published (Hikoki, Schiffer and so on) where it looks like no one has even bothered to read what they publish....

To me it is quite simple really. If I don't understand what I read, so must plenty of others as well. There are books where the author says one thing on page xx and something different on page yy. There could be a very good reason for that, but as an Editor one has to ask, ask and ask again!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of an Italian FBA Type C No.61 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/WWII-CART-FO...AAAOSwvclfSTYU


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Also on ebay tonight is a photo of another Italian flying boat FBA Type H at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Photograph-...kAAOSwcF5fSQYL


The seller says that the serial is 3393 or 3395, but is in fact likely 5595?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Clint

If Paolo Varriale is correct (WDF 124), then, yes, it is far more likely to be 5595 (or 5593?)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


Yes I was guided by Varriale and also Gentilli and Varriale I Repart P.393 has a photo of that machine captioned as belonging to 259 Squadriglia. With moderate confidence (note the use of US national security speak there :) ) I also believe the machine is more likely to be 5595 rather than 5593 as the firs two and the last digit appear the same.But, of course its not cleat enough to be certain.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Weeeeeell Clint (me trying to sound hesitant.... :) )

When I try and increase the size the last digit comes out as something like a bucking horse.:D

To be honest when I reached that far I am not even sure anymore if it is actually is a 3 or 5. Could almost be anything except the digit 1.....:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Italian FBA Type H serial **44 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/CARTOLINA-FO...wAAOSwRylfdteG


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a series of photos of FBA flying boats based at Hourtin at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Terrai...kAAOSwNsVfhTqH


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Terrai...oAAOSwb19fhTrE


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Terrai...UAAOSw38JfhTsS


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Photo-Terrai...MAAOSwkkRfhTs-



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of FBA Type H D1 of CAM de Dunkerque:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fotokarte-ei...QAAOSwNm1fzPOU


The figures in the photo look like they may be German and the aircraft may have landed behind German lines, so is it FBA D1 serial 424 which according to http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad..._Dunkerque.htm was captured on 26 April 1917?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of an Italian FBA Type H flying boat serial 3170 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/294295115591...cAAOSw7k5g~IXf


Rather intriguing is the number 147 under the gun ring. I'd be interested to know the significance of this number.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

French built aircraft Clint

Speculating, since I know nothing about FBA's c/n, could this be an original c/n by them?
I doubt the Italians just painted three random digits for their amusement, so they have to mean something....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


While I cannot absolutely say that we're not looking at the constructor's number, what I can say based on Lucien Morareau's les Aeronefs de l'Aviation Maritime it is perhaps not probable. He has four type H with numbers in the 100-199 range that are type H,although one of those,102,was the prototype. Whereas,the vast majority of machines between No.29 and No.299 are type C.I even wonder how definite the three numbers he does have in the 100-199 range for type T were not perhaps updated type C.But thats speculation.



Incidently,have you seen any other FBA flying boats of the WW.I era with the c/n in the position shown on the photo? Hard to be certain,but I don't think I have.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Clint

The numbers given by Lucien are the French serial numbers and I have no idea if they
corresponded to the numbers given by the manufacturer. Perhaps FBA did not use c/n?

Anyway Lucien gives No 102 as the first FBA Type H, followed by 158, 160, 170 until he jumps to the 300 range
No 147 is missing among the listed type C.

No 102 creates a problem since it is listed for both the type C and type H. Possibly a printing error?

I don't follow you with regard to "type T" in the 101-199 range.
What do you mean since there was no type T?:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hi Stig,


The No.102 was the prototype Type H originally built as a Type C as per the WDF on the type H.


With regard to the type T comment please ignore. Not sure why I typed that,unintentional in any event.What I intended to write refers to the three type H serials in the 100-199 range,whereas other numbers in that range are type C.Hence my suggestion 158,160,170 originally built as type C but possibly updated to Type H.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Always possible Clint

Talked to Gregory about the problem and he agrees it is probably some kind of
manufacturer's detail. If FBA and Aeronautique Maritime had the same sequences,
perhaps No 147 after all?
Seems to have been quite unusual anyway.

He has not researched specifically the FBAs in Italy, but they were pretty early
to order them, so I see no real reason why they should not have acquired a No 147.
Perhaps FBA took back a few model C and modified them, and some were later sent to Italy?

If not, what else can it actually be?

Cheers

Re: Photo FBA Flying Boat
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of FBA Type H D6 of CAM de Dunkerque at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/294343115658...MAAOSw3FphHPCu


Possibly this aircraft was FBA No.316




The seller also has photos of one or two other naval machines which can be found at the following link:

https://www.ebay.de/sch/Fotos-Briefe...ikgabi&_sop=10


Clint