Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Q116-Foto-We...IAAOSwUvxeaIrq


there is a photo of either a Morane MS.225 or MS.226 in french naval service.According to Lucien Morareauin les Aeronefs de l'aviation maritime P.387 THE ms.225 was not in naval service after 1935, so logically it is a MS.226 in the photo.Hoever, the machine in the photo does not clearly show a wheel as the MS.226 did. Any views on the aircraft shown. If an MS.225 which unit?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hello,


This is not a MS but one of the protypes of the Gourdou-Leseurre 521 dive bomber used in 1940 at Cazaux test center.

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

And what is the plane behind ?

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hi Clint

It seems the French continue to create headaches (at least for me....:) )

I don't think this is a Morane 225 (or 226) at all. The reasons are:
a) the landing gear is quite different (not single photo exists of either type with this landing gear)
b) the three-blade propeller (as above, none ever seen before)
c) the straight wing (all M-S designs between the war had a broken upper wing)

I don't think the aircraft is a production model. It has no "buzz number" under the wings. It has no unit markings what so ever. It carries mixed national markings, Aeronautique Maritime under the wings but Armée de l'Air on the fuselage. All this indicates a prototype of some sort.

Behind is one of the Loire-Nieuport 161 prototypes. They all seem to have gone for testing with the CEMA (yes I have found it now) and I have no fate for any of them. But perhaps the photo was taken at CEMA as well?

Having said all this I have no idea of what it is we have in the foreground...:):o

Cheers
Stig

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hi Stig,


I hope the headache passes quickly.


With regard to the id of the aircraft in the foreground, I believe I'm correct in saying the Lucien that answered earlier in the thread is Lucien Morareau, so we can regard the id as a Gourdou Leseurre GL.521 as definitive.


One must as the great american thinker E Cartman might put it "respect his authorotah"


Another image of the GL.521 http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/gl521/gl521-1.jpg




Regards,


Clint

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Ha, ha Clint

It took me quite a while to write my answer since I also checked a number of books while doing so. Never noticed the answers which came in between.

Oddly enough I checked the G-L company since I saw a resemblance to their designs. Looking at the only photo I had (in Le Trait d'Union and part 54 of a series of articles prepared by Charles Claveau) I actually discared the GL-521 as not "good enough".

But since Lucien M. is not only very good at all things Naval he is also way ahead of me when it comes to identifications. (Thanks Lucien!!)

And yes indeed, headache now gone... :)

Cheers
Stig

Original hangar...
 

The original (?) design of the hangar could give a good clue on the location but I know almost nothing on hangars. Hello hangar experts out there? Lucien wrote it's Cazaux so I believe him.

Below and aft of the engine cowling I think we can see a fork having the task of leading a bomb, dropped in a dive, outside the propeller disc, similar to the fork on the Ju 87 "Stuka".

At the time only recent aircraft designs had a three-blade propeller like both types seen here (even "Hurricanes" had a two-blade propeller at the beginning.). The AC in the background has a light-coloured straight line on each propeller-blade to improve security of the ground crews. This was not common at the time either. (Prototype of the well-known Loire-Nieuport LN 401/410 dive-bomber eventually refused by the Armée de l'Air and used in action by the French naval aviation with very heavy losses to Flak?).

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Although both preserie LN 41 were also used at Cazaux, the aircraft behind the Gourdou is not one of them but the prototype of the Loire-Nieuport 161 single seat fighter.

Very interesting Lucien!
 

Thanks for this correction: interesting and useful. So it's the LN 161 fighter prototype.

Not to be found in William Green's famous booklet "FIGHTERS", volume one (1960), which is very old but quite comprehensive. Does any detailed description of LN 161 exist? Where?

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hello,


Well this is pretty comprehensive:


aviadrix.blogspot.com/2012/01/le-nieuport-161-le-favori-initial-1ere.html


Regards,


Clint

LN 161 fighter
 

Wow - most interesting again. It seems that a great opportunity was neglected, but why…

Many thanks for the URL.

Re: Very interesting Lucien!
 

[quote=rof120;284633]Thanks for this correction: interesting and useful. So it's the LN 161 fighter prototype./QUOTE]

If you care to read my message No 4 you will see I already identified the LN-161.

Cheers
Stig

Yes, OK
 

Please Stig don't be upset for there is no reason. Thanking for a new post immediately above doesn't mean ignoring YOUR post, which is useful and for which I thank you. The URL given 3 posts higher than here leads to a long, comprehensive article on this fighter prototype, which was not ordered in large quantities for mysterious reasons. Otherwise it would have been quite a headache for the Luftwaffe - sigh.

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

A bit more about the GL 521:


GL 52 - 1-seat parasol monoplane shipboard divebomber
- GL 520: same as GL 52
- GL 521: 1937 , 1 x 750 hp G-R 9Kfr, 2 built (eg: FW-090)

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Now that I have read a bit more about French aircraft production, here are some details related to the LN 161:


I agree completely with you about the "complexity" affecting the type numbers in the Nieuport aircraft production.

As an help for you is to remember that the Roman numeration was used in the Nieuport company only before 1918.
The designation Nie XXIX was changed to Ni D 29 C1.
The D is for engineer Delage who was the CEO of the Nieuport company.
This system was in use until the Ni D 121, 122, 125, 225 fighters.
In 1933, engineer Delage had left his company.

The Loire yards company purchased the Nieuport one in the same year, but the two aeronautical teams stayed independent.

The Nieuport 161 was designated as Loire-Nieuport 161 only after the discarding of the Loire 250 fighter in 1936. The LN 40, 401, 402, 411 and 42 dive bomber were clearly issued from the LN 161 fighter. The NC 1080 jet carrier fighter share some characteristics of the LN 42.

In January 1937, the Loire-Nieuport company was nationalised as the SNCAO, and the projected Nieuport 60 became the CAO 200.
From this fighter, the hydro fighter CAO 500 and the aircraft carrier fighter CAO 1000 were directly issued from the CAO 200, as also the CAO 810 dive bomber project.

To Stig
 

I'm thanking you again and adding this: Var inte arg på mig för jag är väldigt rädd. Dina meddelanden är bra (även om ”bra” betyder ”BH” för våra engelska och amerikanska kompisar).

Re: Morane MS.226 Photo?
 

Hello,


Although I'm a bit doubtful about whether the photo is original, tonight there is a photo of the LN.161 on ebay at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Aviation-pho...MAAOSwgPJeTBkq


Regards,


Clint