Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hi,

In Manfred Griehl „Junkers - Flugzeuge seit 1915“ (Motorbuch Verlag) there is a photo on p91 of what is claimed to be a Ju-88T-2 NM+HQ at the edge of the Alps on 2 July 1944. Only the letters H and Q are clearly visible in large black letters. Source is given as Schubert. Camouflage is black undersides and a light cloud-like pattern on top.

Can anyone identify this aircraft and the unit? The geschwader code NM does not seem to belong to any of the regular fighting units.
Also, I am not sure it really is a T-2 given that it has Junkers engines.


I would be happy to post a picture of the page if that is allowed.

Thanks,
David

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Yes it is allowed, you would be posting for a legitimate purpose (learning).

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Please find the photo under this link please:

https://ibb.co/rpszLP6

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

David

The NM is not a Geschwader code but the two first digits in its Stammkennzeichnung. Griehl most likely received the information either directly from this "Schubert" or perhaps from photos/logbooks once belonging to that man.

It is not possible by simply reading this code to know which unit the aircraft belonged to.

We have a number of specialists in both WNr and STKZ so maybe one of them knows more. All I can say is that the NM+H(A) and up seems to have been assigned to Junkers and the model 88 (NM+HA was a model Ju 88S)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Usually the planes of the NM+H. serie are documented as S-3 models Wn 330167 to 330192 , nd there are only T-1 nd T-3 , T-2 model is non-existing

S-1/T-1 used Bmw 801 motors S-3/T-3 Jumo 213 motors

Production time hv to be beg. sommer 1944 nd made by Henschel , equiped with Jumo 213 of the 1021/521... block produced by "jfr" not later than june 44
This serie hs been used by LG1/KG66/KG30


But as quite all from NM+HA to NM+HL are documented nd after nil !! possibly remains that part of them hv never been produced or...


Regarding the code in the picture, nd as we only see HQ, I don't know where is coming the NM added by Griehl/Schubert, BG+HQ/S-3 could be an alternate but doubts surround this code, an other countender S-3/PY+HQ..

Possibly as , Peter is not reachable, Ed could cfm which model shows the picture S-3 or T-3 ??


Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

No confirmation - but opinon - it possibly can be Ju 88 T-3 ... or S-3
Now for a unpopular statement: Not everything published be correct.
This and several other authors seem have written beyond confirmed.

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hi folks,
in 2014 Peter Achs posted following at the German aviation forum "Flugzeugforum.de". https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads...a.77042/page-2

• Es gab keinen Staffelbuchstaben Q, so dass die Maschine noch ihr Stammkennzeichen trägt
• Das Flugzeug besitzt noch den original Werksanstrich von Henschel/Schönefeld.
• Demnach könnte es sich um eine werksneue Ju 88 T-3 handeln, die noch ihr Stammkennzeichen hat. Es gibt eine Ju 88 T-3 NM+HQ (W-Nr. 330223)
• Von dieser Ju 88 habe ich leider nur einen Überführungsflug vom FlÜG 1 am 02.07.44 von Staaken nach Brunnthal über München/Riem. Weiterer Verbleib ist mir unbekannt
• Zwei weitere T-3 in dem Werknummernbereich (330222 und 330227) flogen bei der 4.(F)/122 als F6+HM und F6+FM.

- There was no staffel letter Q, so that the machine still bears its STKZ

- The aircraft still has the original factory paint from Henschel / Schönefeld.

- Accordingly, it could be a brand new Ju 88 T-3, which still has its STKZ. There is a Ju 88 T-3 NM + HQ (W-Nr. 330223)

- From this Ju 88 I unfortunately only have a transfer flight from FlÜG 1 on 07/02/44 from Staaken to Brunnthal via Munich / Riem. Further whereabouts are unknown to me

- Two more T-3s in the range number (330222 and 330227) flew on the 4th (F) / 122 as F6 + HM and F6 + FM.

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Seems Peter made some mistakes in the past...
Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Rémi (Ed)

May I ask exactly where Peter made his mistakes back in 2014?
Everyone on the forum are no experts on the Ju 88 production as such.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Thanks for the info everyone. It seems that this probably really is NM+HQ in stkz. on delivery to a fighting unit somewhere.

Does anyone know if stammkenzeichen were usually applied in large (early-war style) letters or did they follow the practice of applying the first two letters very small?

On a sidenote, this aircraft wears a different camo pattern from the one posted by Junkers-Peter on flugzeugforum, albeit it is still a very similar style.

Thanks,
David

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

different camo may indicate one of the 36 converted T-3 (DLH Staaken, based on S-3) instead of the 12 direct-built T-3 (Henschel)

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

The Stkz NM+H series did not run in a 26 letter sequence but for security reasons was split between two W/Nr runs. all with Ju88S-3s
330141 - 330166 ??+?A - ??+?Z (26 run sequence appears to have been allocated)
330167 - 330180 - NM+HA - NM+HN
330221 - 330230 - NM+HO - NM+HX
It seems as HY and HZ were not allocated as I have NM+HY as a Fw56A with FFS(A/B)43
Does anybody else have any other possible sequences for the Type S-3?

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

A good point Tom, I hv also suspected that as the Wn confirmed/proofed of the serie 330141 +, seems to end at 330178 a gap nd then T-3 from .. 224 to 247, STKZ for the last ones is debatable BG+H. or BK+K. or possibly 246 is BG+HZ nd the following 247 start with BK+KK, your opinion Tom ??


330141 to 330166 i can offer NL+L. , I hv LA/LB/LC/LD/LS documented ...


Regarding Peter, Stig, as he is very quiet for some time , I only try to tease him, regarding what post Tom, what he says is full of sense of course. But at the time i was not aware of ...


Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

In the first lot, 330141/166, I hv doubts if any before 330146...


Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Tom,

"It seems as HY and HZ were not allocated as I have NM+HY as a Fw56A with FFS(A/B)43"

That one I have as NM+AY.

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Thanks Remi & Gerhard - Much appreciated.

Gerhard - I have no references for NM+HY just an odd STKZ which is now highly suspect and therefore I consider is a TYPO. So Remi this now leaves me clear to consider the last two Stkz in the sequence NM+AY/AZ.
I have Ju88S-3 - 330253 to 330275 as BR+LD to BR+LZ
(Note: BR+LA to LE was allocated to Me410A-1 120110 to 120114)
This leaves the two missing Stkz for Ju88S-3 - 330251 - 252. To me this seems highly likely (and this is just a suggestion?) that NM+AY/AZ was allocated to this slot. This fits in with the split W/Nr blocks and the known W/Nr/Stkz we have to hand.
To go back to 330141 - 166 block that you suggest is in the NL+L series, I have NL+LA to LD as Type S-1. Can you give me anymore info on the ones you listed as LA/LB/LC/LD/LS with documentation. Thanks

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

First of all, thanks for everyone's input

However I am now even more confused than before.

Tom
In your last post you now say that Me 410 WNr 120114 is BR+LE. According to Petrick/Stocker WNr 120110 - 120116 were BR+LA to BR+LG
Now that is the same STKZ as you give for Ju 88 S-3 WNr 330253 -330256.
Something is wrong here, please explain.

Then you mention STKZ NM+AY/AZ (I hope with that you actually mean NM+HY and +HZ), but I don't understand why they should be WNr 330251 and 252? NM+HX (the last one you list) was 330230.

Rémi
I confess I don't understand your version at all. :confused:
Could you please tabulate your STKZ lists again in a more readable version and what you think your ranges include? All I can see is you differ from Tom's listings....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hi Stig - Thanks for bringing me back down to earth. And I apologize to all for muddying the waters. A warning to all - DO NOT DO ANYTHING AFTER A BUSY NIGHT OUT AND RUSHING IT BEFORE TURNING THE LIGHTS OUT
I did two sets of lists and got these hopelessly mixed up and should have re-checked the final input before sending off.
For some reason my records only have the Me410A-1 to 120110 - 120114. I do not have the Petrick/Stoker info but see that Peter's data-base includes this up to BR+LG but did not check this. My records amended.
I still maintain that the Ju88S-3 W/Nrs include 330221 with NM+HO and may have used all the sequence up to NM+HZ (330232) so perhaps had no further splits up to 330290. The only known ones I have is BR+LU/LZ - 330270 - 330275. The next sequence is 330276 - 330290 SP+MA to MN. I have nothing for the Stkz BG+H series or the BK+K that includes Ju 88S-3? Can anybody help?

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

First of all I hv to say that , here we don ‘t hv to do with an accurate science, we hv tits nd bits, nd try to put up consistent series .
Material is scarce many more hv been lost compae to available material, all our supposition/findings
are based on ;
Losses returns /NVM, never we shall praise Matti enought for that
Logbooks
Documents from the Test stations
Documents from the factories, a lot of them exist , but seems some hv the value of gold , nd their holders dont share them easily
Books
Some sites , TOCH, Stammkennzeichen.de, ……spread theses data.
But as I said many things are missing…
Stig, I will try to put the data in an excel file it will be clearer..
Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Tom

Thanks, now I follow you better, even if the range 330276 - 290 cannot be SP+MA to +MN. You have either one WNr too much (15 positions right now) or one STKZ missing (14 positions right now).

Rémi

Thanks to you as well. With regard to Matti, yes it goes without saying, he is a giant and I think I speak for us all when I say that.
I would very much appreciate a list from your side.

From a general point, I do feel very much like a novice when it comes to the intricacies of German aircraft production, and it is not always I get the point straight away. But I am interested and do try to follow a certain learning curve...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

First of all , if we accept what Denniss said, 12 T-3 were made directly by Henschel , probably the 330221 to 330232 , nd 36 were made with existing S-3, we could find trace of these ones in the losses, nd batch is discontinued I found 12 pcs of them
I noted also that the T-2 nd S-2 are used, possibly, concerning the S-2 to name the transformed A-4 …
I found also a very rare A-5 880678 GM+ZC transformed to an ‘T’, who fits well in the GM+F. serie, in middle of wich we find Hs130 …Ju88 study offers lot of surprises indeed

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

no, no, no. Please stop the speculations, its serving no-one but confusing probably most. The GM+ZC was a Ju 88 C-7, special conversion, a forrunner of all Ju 88 Ts but never a T.

All of you commenting in this thread, you seem have just bits and pieces, not nessarily wrong, just premature and speculative to discuss in this way.

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

That's true of me, you and everyone else, except perhaps on the narrowest of topics. How could it be otherwise when the documentation surviving from World War 2 is so fragmentary?

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hello Ed, you are right only speculations based on b+t, but at least we hv something to show, even if not 100 % 'certified', nevertheless I accept your critics

But:

transformed to an ‘T’ , is not very different to, a C-7 forrunner of all Ju 88 Ts...
Further this C-7 was also a transformed A-5 probably

So like Lavoisier said, "Rien ne se perd, rien ne se crée, tout se transforme ":D
Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed, not necessary to translate the "grins"

Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hi all

I also want to say no, no, no.
GM + ZC was a Hs 130 (FB Darre) and not a Ju88!
In this work number range is the last SKZ GN+OP I know for the Ju88 A-5/0677, then there is a gap up to the GM+ZR, Ju 88 A-5/0693.
GM+ZA - GM+ZB were He 111,
GM+ZC - GM+ZI were Hs 130, followed by a Do 17 / GM+ZL and finally a Ju 88 D / GM+ZN (WNr. Not known, probably 0689).
The Ju 88 C-7 is said to be WNr. 0648 (this information comes from the Internet and I can not prove it).
The Ju 88 D-2/0678 was lost on February 20, 1042 via England (1./Vers.Verb.ObdL).
In any case, the Ju 88 C-7 was definitely not wearing the SKZ GM+ZC.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Rémi

Sorry, but I cannot open your attachment. According to my computer the file is damaged and I cannot repair it how much I try.

JoMe

I also have the Hs 130 V2 as GM+ZC but I don't follow you with the loss of WNr 088.0678. All sources I have say it was lost 20 April 1943 as T9+FH 1.(V)/Ob.d. Lw. Some claim it was a T-1 but I stick to what Ed says, a C-7.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hello Jochen,


To me the code on FB Darre looks like GM+ZG...


Data for the 0678/GM+ZC seems to come from Rössler, what hv Ed for this one ??

Sure around these numbers it's a mess, when I gave the 0678/GM+ZC I don't bother around it , the subject of the thread was T/S models nd we are seeking in the 330xxx range sorry.
Between 0677 nd 0693 there is lot of numbers, that we can find in the losses or the logs of test-pilots
We can open a special thread for these ones

Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hello Stig,

a clarification:
GQM 23 Feb 1942 item 2
20.2. 3.(F)/122 Feindflug, Ort: Fl.Pl. Montdidier, Ursache: Bauchlandung infolge Bedienungsfehler, Ju 88 D-1 1678 (not 0678!) 45%.

GQM 22 April 1943 item 177
20.4. 1./Vers.Verb.d.Ob.d.L. Feindflug, Auftrag: Chelmsford, Ursache: Feindbeschuß, Ju 88 0678 (T9+FH) 100%.
F Lt Bäumer, Hans verm
B Lt Hunold, Paul verm
Bf Ofw Dietz, Hermann verm.
Correction 5 May 1943: Lt Bäumer, Lt Hunold, Ofw Dietz gefallen. Ändere Verlusttag in 20.2.43 (Ju 88 Werk-Nr. 0678).

Regards
Leo

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Stig, file was .xlsx , but as the site don't accept this type of files, nd change it in .xls, if you force it, it will open
R

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

I thing now you could open it

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Thank You Rémi

Works like a charm! :)

Also thanks Leo

Nice to find the correct WNr of "0678"
But I don't understand why GQM changes the date from 20 April 1943 to 20 Feb. Makes no sense. I doubt British Intelligence/Fighter Command would make a mistake when the aircraft came down off Britain and the date the crew became POW/KIA.
There is no claim on 20 Feb (seems no recorded action what so ever from Fighter Command on that date) while on 20 April Lt M Ericsen claimed a Ju 88 10 mls off Clacton at 11.50H (which is where/when WNr 0678 came down)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hello Stig,

in a second correction (26 June 1943) is listed:
Lt Bäumer, Hans nicht tot, sondern verletzt in englischer Gefangenschaft.

Regards
Leo

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Thanks Leo

Yes, the British rescued Bäumer from the sea while his two comrades had to pay the ultimate prize.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Remi & JoMe, this is strange and rather embarrassing, my basic text shows 0678 as C-7 (verified in WW2 doc) and GN+OQ (interpolated), this was ex-A-5 but my C-7 (types text and work in progress) file showed GM+ZC, but that source looks dubious. Neither stkz. are verified from sources, and I typed in the wrong one. Apologies - comparision to Hs 130 had been overlooked (now partly verified), understandable as I thought not have any Henschel related logbooks - wrong! And many here seems have their own personal errors and are of course excused and have their right to be wrong. Thus the 0648 (GE+YM J&P) and 0678 are the two C-7´s thought be known, but there was one more in some planning report.

Returning on topic, no no no, the Ju 88 T-3´s (all were converted S-3s), made in January and February 1945 (are) suspected not be new (despite 6. Abt. delivery records) and were not the 330221 block, and more are scatterd all over (about 41 assigned), I think them 12 T-3 in Jan/Feb are in the late 3313xx and 334xx blocks, and possible three there I have known. The 0221 block was from summer 1944. My S-3 blocks are fully worked out but not fully edited or checked off.

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

I hv one look at Darré log, looks really that the Hs130 was ....GM+ZC, so my apologises

Rémi

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hs 130 GM+ZG Rechlin 13.05.42 (FB Staege)

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

The correction for the loss date for C-7 0678 must be wrong.
The aircraft was in FRW Villacoublay from 01.03.1943 - 03.03.1943 for repair.
(RL 3/1919)


Regards
Dirk

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

Hi

These are interesting posts.
The Ju 88/0678 was actually lost in 1943 (I have made a mistake).
Interestingly, only three casualties are listed, which actually points to a Ju 88 C / T. The version of the Ju 88 is unfortunately not listed.
Maybe there is a "crashed enemy aircraft report" for this aircraft ?
I think the SKZ GM + OQ (sorry, it must be GN + OQ) is very likely.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

post 38 GM+OQ ? Not GN+OQ ?

Re: Ju-88T-2/3 NM+HQ
 

#37 Agree. Clearly written C-7 678.
#38 No Ju 88 T had been made or delivered by time of loss (20.04.43). Sources state C-7 678 (without the 0 but that was very common), and loss sais Ju 88 0678 (narrowing possibilties considerably) but strength list (www2.dk) for 1.(V)/Ob.d.L. does not appear in that website. Maybe it was never there?
#39 GN+O is correct block. Several pictures are of A-5 0673 GN+OL at Villa (30.08.44) and colour video on youtube or Critical Past, and that plane was there for long time and never left, scrapped by Allies as already shot up. Its final scheme appears single-tone Dark Green (French?) and very similar to French Gray (darker then Hallgrau or Hellblau).