Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Sopwith 1 1/2 Struuter in french service at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/photo-ww1-so...sAAOSw0~5ed5q3


and:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/photo-ww1-so...wAAOSwq29ed5pv


A possible serial 344 on the second photo?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Could be Clint

However with over 4000 Sopwith 1A2 and 1B1/2 built in France there could be one more digit not visible.

Again the photos are pretty indifferent and it is impossible to say which unit they served with. At least the BR 123 used Sopwiths in their earlier life....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


On ebay a nice photo of a Sopwith 1F.1 Camel with a 180 hp Clerget Engine as tested by France:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/2-PHOTOS-NIE...UAAOSwKqlbnUBX


also shown according to the seller a Nieuport Parasol which appears to bear british roundels. Anyone know more about this machine?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Clint

While the Camel as you say was used by Clerget for various engine tests the Nieuport monoplane fighter prototype is more shady.

Late in the war (well from mid 1917 or so), the company tried its best to renew their designs and even drop the biplane formula and try the monoplane shape.
There are various photos of one (or two) airplanes built from late 1917 to early/mid 1918. They all conform to the same monoplane shape with mostly different landing gear and tail configurations. For all I can say, it could actually be one and the same airframe rebuilt over and over again.

They (it?) never received any type number which to me indicate that maybe Nieuport itself was not very interested in switching to monoplanes. Since they continued with their biplane designs and was given large orders for their Nieuport-Delage 29 model, I would say were quite correct! :)

Checking my sources, they are very reluctant to give anything away, and most seems to repeat what Jean Noel stated som 50 years ago....first aircraft being under construction in October 1917 and the idea being abandoned in May 1918. They all show two-three photos, this one being one of them.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the reply. Your reply contains I think all that seems to be known about this Nieuport Monoplane (the name given in Davilla and Soltan).TBH I was hoping something might have turned up since that was published - though admittedly I wasn't optimistic. The seller of that item has a number of other (to my mind overly pricey) examples of prototype French aircraft. Perhaps all were taken at the C.R.P.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


A further photo of a Sopwith 1A2 9413 is currently on ebay at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/photo-britis...MAAOSwZ-RelHWB


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a line up of Sopwith 7F.1 Snipes of 43 Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/GROUP-of-SO...wAAOSwf1Retkvb


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Like the previous post also from 43 Squadron Sopwith 1.5 Strutter A1073 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/FOTO-FLUGZEU...674c%7Ciid%3A1


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

You must have given the wrong tag here Clint

No Sopwith as far as I can see :confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks once again. I suppose I could say its hidden by the LVG;), but probably just easier to post the correct link, which I've now done.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Ah yes now I see it

It's the aircraft which has the size of a Gnat's left nostril, right?

Joking aside Clint, when clicking on the link all I got was a connection to the old one. I had to copy and paste to reach the Sopwith. Really odd.

Anyway aircraft lost 5 April 1917. Bloody April had just getting started....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Stig,


I see what you mean. I'll try again! Its now fixed. Probably. It actually took more than one attempt. Not sure what I was doing there.Weird.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay a photo of Sopwith Pup A626 of 8 Squadron RNAS at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-WK-I-Fl...MAAOSwXbVevoE3


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Sopwith 1½ Strutter with the serial A100? at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/X4376-Foto-W...sAAOSwRu5ewPrf


Does anyone recognise the machine and accordingly can provide the full serial number?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Clint

This is a tricky one. Reason is that two squadrons using basically the same markings were in action at the same time, No 43 and No 70 Sq.

The loss must have been before 15 June 1917 (date on the flip side)

On June 3rd 1917 No 70 Sq lost A1012 marked A-3 when on a photo-recce mission near Menin. From the report the aircraft was seen to turn over. The crew was reported as KIA.

Was it possible to photograph the aircraft and make a postcard and send that one off in 12 days? If yes, I would say we have a match.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Stig,


Compelling reasoning. Thanks. Surprising that the aircraft is in such relatively good shape with the crew being KIA.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Clint

Cannot agree more.
The evidence is after all a bit circumstantial.

I have one accident with No 43 Sq which also could fit
A1098 which went missing 20 April 1917 (no code listed)
It was hit by AA fire (or at least ground-fire) over Beaucamps and crashed soon after. Both crew WIA and POW.

No idea how many more crashes I can locate going further and further back in time. I have to leave it here, since I don't have any more time for this particular aircraft.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Stig,


I was just mentioning the state of preservation of the aircraft in passing. I'm more than happy to accept A1012 as the machine in the photo given the evidence you present. I hope you didn't take it as doubt on my part, far from it.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

No, no Clint, far from that

Everyone on TOCH should be able to face criticism.
After all, we only have a photo with half a s/n to go on plus an end date in this case, so of course you should express opinions!

Sometimes it is just fascinating to see how far one can get with only that at your disposal.

After all, I would say, most of us have a deep interest in what we are doing and it is only by sharing thoughts, new evidence etc that we can actually move forward. I will always appreciate yours (and everyone elses) thoughts.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a post combat photo of Sopwith 1F.1 Camel B5658 of 10 Naval Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/53054559-Fot...kAAOSwwqxexUOy


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a nice photo of Sopwith 1F.1 Camel C3288 of 66 Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/WW1-Aeroplan...IAAOSwxOJeyk~r


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Sopwith Dolphin C3791 of 79 Squadron post combat at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-8-Flieg...0AAOSw3X1e1sMx


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Sopwith 7F.1 Snipe B9965 perhaps at the Aeroplane Experimental Station Martlesham Heath :


https://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-ORIGI...UAAOSwe0de418Y



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Sopwith Tabloid at:


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAPLANE-...cAAOSwR6le5M3O


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,

A Sopwith Baby floatplane with Linton Hope floats.

https://www.kingstonaviation.org/sop...-day/1916.html - scroll down to 7th September.

Col.

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Col,


Thanks for the correct id.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Col

Without a serial number I think you will be hard pushed to identify this one.

The Naval Air Service designated the Monosoupape engined tractor biplane/seaplanes both as Schneider and Baby.
I don't know why they (Sopwith?) changed name specifically on contract C.P.48013/15 and in spite of using both engines (also the Clerget one) they still were known by the name Baby in the batch 8118 - 8217. All earlier M-engined aircraft were known as Schneiders.

However you are correct, they were never known as Tabloids. That name was only used by the RFC.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Stig,


Totally happy to accept whatever you and the Col agree upon with regard to the type of aircraft shown, because I don'yt know.


However Sturtivant & Page use Tabloid for the RNAS in Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

True Clint

But if you check they are all ex RFC aircraft. They probably didn't dare to change their names.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Stig,


See serials 1201- 1212 or at least no previous RFC ownership is mentioned there.


They probably would have changed the name just to spite the RFC for the sake of interservice rivalry and then could go on to fight the 'real enemy' the other service rather than the distraction provided by the Kaiser :)


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

You're right, I missed that batch

However the photo shows the enlarged rudder so I believe it is from a later batch.
Do you have any photo of a Tabloid in the 1201-1212 batch, just to compare?

The early Sopwith aircraft are a nightmare. When Bruce Robertson made his book about him and the company he got full co-operation from Sir Thomas, but not sure if he was of much help really....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hi Stig,


I'd strongly agree that the tailplane points towards a Sopwith Schneider rather than a Tabloid.But as the Col has already pointed out its a Baby and the tailplane would fit a Baby too, that's the most likely conclusion.


The last couple of my posts were just pointing out that there were RNAS Tabloids, not alas that the photo shows a Tabloid. I completely accept that was a wrong initial id on my part.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Yes Clint

A Schneider or a Baby, but how to prove it? :)
Without a serial number, you will have a hard time doing exactly that.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Clint/Stig,

I pulled my copy of J M Bruce's Sopwith Baby monograph (Albatros, Windsock Datafile No.60, 1996), out of storage. The volume has two photographs (on p.14), of the said Sopwith, with the following captions:

Photo 36. To improve take-off performance and water handling, this Baby was fitted with a pair of elegant floats designed by Major Linton Hope. Their planing bottoms had an outward slope, a feature that was later introduced on the Port Victoria PV5 fighter seaplane - Fine!

Photo 37. The Linton Hope "Schneider" at speed on the Thames - !!!

The batches are clearly defined, but, as Stig said: No serial - no positive ID.

Col.

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Col

A publication I don't have, but I have the highest respect for Jack Bruce and his research. I had not seen the photo before, so I judged it simply from that perspective.

No idea from where Jack Bruce got his ID, quite possibly he had more details available.

I suppose I am also coloured by the "old thinking" that every Sopwith with the horseshoe cowling were Babies and the rest Schneiders....

Looking at the problem from an engine point of view, it seems the 80 hp engined version was the Tabloid, 100hp the Schneider and 110 hp the Baby, but perhaps I am simplifying things too far here....

BTW, thanks for stepping in Col. Always nice the more we get discussing the objects found by Clint! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of an overturned Sopwith 1F.1 Camel of 70 Squadron, quite possibly E7205 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/WW1-Crashed-...kAAOSwmkFe5gUD


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Sopwith Pup C231 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-RFC-Pho...EAAOSwIMtfIGPy


and a Sopwith Dolphin at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-RFC-Pho...MAAOSwGzVfIEvA



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Sopwith 1.5 Strutter A5950 at:


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Biplane-R...YAAOSwsQpfHUj7


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Sopwith 1F.1 Camel B2307 of 70 Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-1918-We...4AAOSwFn9fbdRt


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Sopwith
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a french Sopwith 1A2 or 1B2 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Aereo-Histoi...wAAOSwfcBZixDN


Regards,


Clint