Turin Raids 1943
 

Looking for details on the operations to Turin, Italy on August 12/13th & 16/17th 1943, specifically any German claims.
No.3 (Bomber) Group HQ and Base HQ’s record that their was considerable activity over the target especially on the 16/17th attack when returning crew’s reported several aircraft shot down in the target area.
This is however not supported by Middlebrook’s BCWD or Chorley’s BCL vol 4. Can anyone help with any German claims over Turin on either of these nights? I have checked the Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat Claims book (John Foreman etc) and Tony Woods Excellent site. What German units would have been available to intercept this raid in the area of Northern Italy.
Regards
Steve

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Dear smudger3,

I had a quick look into my books but was unable to find a positive answer to your question. From what I found in my sources (chiefly the official history of Regia Aeronautica 1939-43 by Nino Arena and the classic "Obbiettivo Italia" -target Italia- by Giorgio Bonacina) it seems that the defence of the industrial area of Milan and Turin was left to the Italian fighters and the Italian flak (called D.A.T), so no Luftwaffe involvement at all was possible over these cities, in fact is seems that all the fighter and nightfighter units of the Luftwaffe were based in Sardinia and in southern and central Italy.
According with my books the attacks of the night 12/13 cost the B.C. seven losses, five over Turin and two over Milan, additionally other machines were damaged -among which that of Sergeant Arthur Louis Aaron VC over Turin. All the RAF bombers were claimed by the Italian D.A.T.
Regarding the raid of the night 16/17 over Turin, my sources reported three (or four) losses all caused by the D.A.T. A recent study on Italian nightfighters written by Giuseppe Grande and published on April 2006 in the magazine Storia Militare identify Lancaster III DV 183 as the last Allied machine shot down by Italian nightfighter units, it was on the night of July the 17th, so no Italian nightfighter's victory at all for August.
Hope this helps.

Ludovico.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Dear Ludovico,

Thank you for your interesting reply.


Can you identify the Italian unit’s in the region during this period and what aircraft were they equipped with. Can you also confirm if there were scrambled and if any interceptions were made regardless of outcome. I appreciate it’s a tall order but any information would be most welcome.

Kind regards


Steve

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Dear Steve,

identification of the Italian units operating in the area is not such a tall order don't worry, in August 1943 there were not so many Italian unit left... Regarding details of -eventual- missions carried out on the nights of 12/13 and 16/17 I have no idea, it is quite possible that they still exist in the archives of the Historical Office of the Italian Air Force, you can try to ask if someone of the Italian enthusiast participating in this forum could kindly check these data for you during a visit there; I don't foresee another visit within the year but once there -possibly next spring- I'll for sure check this and other infos.
Back to the Italian units that could had scrambled, I'm giving you the list of Italian fighter units in the area on September the 8th, they were -almost for sure- the same also twenty days earlier even if their combat strenght was for sure slightly different.

Based in Turin/Caselle there was the complete 53° Stormo CT but it had no planes left at all, in the same conditions were 3° Gruppo Aut. CT and 150° Gruppo Aut. CT. The three units had recently came back from Sicily.
8° Gruppo Aut CT was based in Sarzana (Liguria near the naval base of La Spezia) with around seventeen Macchi MC 200 combat ready, these machines sometimes scrambled against RAF bombers during the return leg of their missions -from the Turin/Milan area to Tunisia- but they were not night fighters so their involvement in these night missions is higly unlikely. 13° Gruppo Aut CT was based in Metato (Toscana near Pisa) with six MC 202 for this unit is worth what already said for 8° Gruppo. Finally the unit specifically tasked of intercepting the Allied bombers remains:
2° Gruppo Aut (only two Squadriglie strong) based in Liguria with three RE 2001s and eleven CR 42s, 59° Gruppo Aut based at Venegono (near Varese so generally in the Milan area) equipped with four RE 2001s, two CR 42s and some Do 217J1-2 -the German interceptors were not combat ready on September but maybe in August they were- and finally 60° Gruppo AUT divided between Venegono where two BF 110 C3 and seven RE 2001s were based and Lonate Pozzolo -again close to Milan- where two DO 217J1-2 and two CR 42s were based -. These units were the only able to try with some chance of success night interceptions and if any Italian fighter was up that night it is probable it became from these units. Additionally it is still possible that small nightfighter sections were based in the major airfields -as Turin/Caselle- for point defence but this I don't know for sure.
P.S.
I looked better into my sources and found that the Lancaster shot down on July the 17th was the machine of Pilot Officer Stubbs, his codes were EM-W and its serial number is reported also as ED 692 in alternative to DV 183.
Ciao.

Ludovico

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Hi Ludovica .

Thank you for the detailed reply. It gives me something to work on.

I am currently listing all the No.3 Group crews that operated on the two Turin raids in question.This will include all references to fighter activity, encounters and sightings. If you are interest I will forward it on on completion. All details
are taken via the squadron ORB's, Base and Station Records Books.

Once again, Thank you my friend.

Steve

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Hi Ludovico

I am a bit puzzled about some of "your" AT Gruppi.
According to Courage Alone

3 Gruppo still belonged to 53 Stormo
150 Gruppo did likewise
151 Gruppo was also based at the time at Caselle (also belonging to 53 St) but not listed by you.

I have no Stormi listings, so I don't really know if and when that unit was disbanded or not.

2 Gruppo still belonged to 6 Stormo (based at Genova)

The same here. Dunning does not report 6 Stormo as disbanded.

Your comments appreciated.

Also does anyone have a full Stormi listing during the WW 2 period and which Gruppi that belonged to them at any given period?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Waiting for the Ludovico Slongo's answer, I can try to make a little explanation: Gruppo Caccia Terrestre is the Regia Aeronautica way to indicate a Fighter Group, usually made up of three Squadriglie (with a nominal strenght of twelve AC each).
Two Gruppi Caccia terrestri used to be attached to a Stormo. If a Gruppo was Autonomo (Aut), that meant that it wasn't depending from any Stormo. In other words, it was on his own, with its three (or sometimes four) Squadriglie.
Regarding the 150 GCT, it was depending from the 53 Stormo only until October 1940, when it was transferred from Northern Italy (where it had partecipated to the war against France) to Albania, to support the impending Italian attack to Greece, and it was made Autonomo.
From oct 40 on, 150 GCT operated as Gruppo Autonomo until the Italian Armistice on 8 Sept. 43, when, as Slongo said, it was in Tourin Caselle, without AC, badly depleted after the bitter fighting in Sicily during earlier July and August.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Dear Stig,
I can only confirm what I told to Steve, but I'm adding some explanations to better corroborate my data.
3° Gruppo C.T. (Caccia Terrestre - day fighters) was originally (I mean on June the 10th 1940) part of 6° Stormo togheter with 19° Gruppo Combattimento -which wasn't a fighter unit but was a ground attack unit flying Breda BA 88 temporarily attached to it. 19° Gruppo was disbanded on December the 1st 1940 while 6° Stormo was "suspended" on July the 19th 1941 and never reformed. Since that moment 3° Gruppo became an autonomuos unit and fought over the Mediterranean in North Africa and in Sicily until the moment it was retired to Turin -still as an autonomous unit.
2° Gruppo C.T. on the other hand, was part of 6° Stormo in the thirties but became an autonomous unit on June the 3rd 1940 so before the beginning of the war. Sice that moment the unit remained an autonomous one fighting over Greece, North Africa and Malta. 2° Gruppo was "suspended in November 1942 and reformed, this time in fact as an Intercettori (interceptors) unit in May 1943, retaining the two Squadriglie structure of the Intercettori units.
I didn't mention 151° Gruppo, (you are right) but only because I considered it part of the already mentioned 53° Stormo.
This unit at the beginning of the war was formed by 150° and 151° Gruppo C.T. then on September the 9th 1940 it lost 151° Gruppo -that went to North Africa where it fought as one of the most successful CR 42s units in theatre- and took on charge 157° Gruppo. Then on October the 23rd 53° Stormo lost also 150° Gruppo that went to Greece -where it fought with distinction suffering and inflicting quite heavy losses. Since that moment 150° Gruppo remained an autonomous unit also fighting in North Africa and over Sicily. 53° Stormo instead lost 157° Gruppo and was "suspended" on February the 25th 1941 only to be rebuilt on January the 1st 1942 on two Gruppi: 151° and 153°. This was its composition also on August 1943 in Turin, this I specify also for Steve's benefit.
In fact I didn't took the time to check my copy of "Courage Alone" but from what you said it seems to me that it contains some inaccuracies regarding the composition of the above mentioned units, -more that comprehensible, in my opinion, in such an encyclopedic work.
Regarding the Stormi/Gruppi listing you asked about, it exists (even if only in Italian language) was prepeared by Tullio Marcon in 2000 and published by the Italian Magazine "Storia Militare". If you give me an appropriate mail address I'll detail better this aspect.
To Steve,
thank you, any information on RAF raids on Northern Italy you'll be so kind to share will be more than appreciated, but again I'm not being able to help you before next spring at least.
To Gianluca,
your site is simply WONDERFUL in particular the combat history of 150° Gruppo (based on primary sources) that it contains -but you have to speed up the job of compilation... I can't wait to see it finished! And maybe add also some data coming from French, Greek and British sources (at last those already available on the 1940-41 combats). I discovered the site only last week and I should confess that every day since then I was tempted to join it .

Ciao to all

Ludovico.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

One last thing about Courage Alone by C. Dunning. As the author states at the beginning of the chapter devoted to the Gruppi operations (p. 26 of the Italian edition), in the heading he pictures the situation on 10 Jun 1940, when Italy entered WW2 by declaring war on UK and France.
That's why 150° Gruppo CT is reported being part of 53° Stormo, as it actually was on 10 Jun 1940. Later, as also Dunning reports, on 23 Oct 1940 the Gruppo became Autonomo (meaning it wasn't anymore depending from 53° or anyelse Stormo) and transferred from Italy to Albania.

To Ludovico Slongo.
Many thanks for your kind words. We are looking forward to read you in our forum dedicated to historical themes. It would be a great pleasure.:)

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Correct
My mistake. I didn't expect the units to have become autonomous that early. Just checked Dunnings latter text. Sorry about that.:o

I would very much appreciate a Stormo listing with corresponding Gruppi attachments

I can be reached on e-mail hagel.jarlevik@bredband.net

Many thanks to you both for updating my meager knowledge of the Stormo units

Cheers
Stig

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Following on from my posts regarding the No.3 Group attack on Turn on the night of August 16/17th 1943.

Although the main target was “Turin”, 25 selected crews drawn from each of the participating squadrons attacked target T.67 without PFF support.

Unfortunately I have been unable to determine the identity of T.67, I have checked the squadron, station and group ORB’s. The squadron’s mention a “special” target.

Any assistance on this will be welcome.:)

Regards

Steve

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

That mission was treated in an article I published on January 1995 on the Italian "JP4" magazine.

The mission involved, among the others, eighteen Lancasters of Sqn. 467 and Sqn. 207. Their objective was the bombardment of the electrical power plants of Brugherio (Milan), Cislago (Varese), Trezzo (Milan) and Traversetolo (Parma).

It was a "shuttle" mission with one-way-only route and landing in Algeria.

Two Lancasters were damaged by the one of the four Italian Do-217Js operating on that night and was the J-1 flown by ten. De Michelis of 233^ Squadriglia : the first to be attacked at 03.25 hrs was the one flown by Flight/Officer Carmichael (Sqn. 467) which sustained hits under the belly (which killed the navigator Sgt. Murray) followed a few minutes later by the Lanc flown by F/O Locke of the same unit, which received hits on the wing/fuselage attach pointa and was compelled to drop its load managing to evade its attacker and to reach Blida four hours later, effecting there a crash-landing which resulted in no losses but for the write-off of the bomber.

The second Dornier Do-217J-1 flown by Cap. Aramis Ammannato managed instead to intercept and to shoot down at 04.15 hrs the Lancaster III “EM-W” serial ED692 flown by P/O L. E. Stubbs after that the bomber had already dropped its load of thirteen 500 lbs bombs e ninety 4 lbs incendiaries on Cislago power plant. Only the dorsal gunner Sgt. W. O’Brien survived from the crash and was found almost unharmed among the wreckage laying on the shingle bed of river Ticino.

Considering the above data, it could be guessed that the "special" Target T.67 should have been the power plants already quoted.

HTH

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Sorry, my fault. Do not consider my post above. I mis-read your reference to 16/17 August 1943 for 16/17 July 1943. Hope it is no problem.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

No problem my friend.

Regards

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Dear Ferdinando,

I would be interested in any details you have regarding the 12/13th August & 16/17th August operations. I have all the No.3 (B) Group ORB's, Station and group records for the period.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

As reported in my post, I studied only the mission of 16/17 July 1943, since it involved the only (confirmed) Italian claim while flying German night fighters.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Hi Veltro,

You maybe aware that a Stirling Stirling crew had an encounter with an Italian Breda 65 over Turin 16/17th August, there was also two other encounters, both with twin engine fighters in the area of Turin. I have Combat Reports (Air50) for all three encounters.

Perhaps someone would be interested in copies of these reports.

Regard

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

There must have been a clear misidentification problem, as I seriously doubt that a Breda 65 could be operational (of for what is worth, even in the air) in Northern Italy by the summer of 1943, let alone by night...

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Ferdinando,

Appreciate that the identity of the fighter was incorrect; nevertheless a “Night-fighter” did make three determine attacks on the aircraft resulting in superficial damage to the Stirling. If it was not a Breda what could it have been? ? Comments appreciate.

Regards

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

If we navigate in the realms of the "might have been", the single-engine fighter could even be a Fiat Cr.42 (one of 234^ Sq. was in the air in the night of 16/17 July...), about the twin-engine fighters, if those sightings do refer to 16/17 August 1943, then those could only be the Dornier Do-217J-1s or J-2s of 235^ Squadriglia (233^ Sq. had delivered its three Do-217s - one only operational - to 235^ Sq. on that very 16 August). The two surviving Bf 110s (W.Nr.1358 - 1804) of 235^ Sq. had ceased to be operational since early summer, so it's unlikely their presence.

Hope this helps.

Re: Turin Raids 1943
 

Ferdinando,

Thanks for that, it gives me a starting point.

Regards