A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Guys:

I am in the process of reading Hannig's 'Luftwaffe Fighter Ace' & right now the book is at the point where Lang & company are flying from a nearly deserted airbase in Kiev; he claimed 18 vics that day in 4 separate sorties;
SO...a couple of questions:

Was Lang's wingman, Uffz 'Fred' Gross the same person as Lt Alfred Gross who was with Lang on the flight where Lang was shot down & killed? Does anyone know what happened to Gross? Did he survive the war? What Vic total?

Second, anyone have access to the Soviet loss records for the day? Any idea what the losses were to flak, fighters & whatnot? From Hannig's account, they personally witnessed Lang shooting down two LaG 5/7 practically in front of them---it also appeared that in many cases the IL2 & fighter unit were totally unaware that there were even LW fighters in the area; of course there were only a rotte of FW's; maybe they were mistaken for La5/7s among the gaggles of Fighters & Fighter bombers?

Another interesting observation by Hannig: at the time of the fighting around Kiev many IL2 units were flying from a forward field--they were so close they'd take off, bomb & return without even bothering to raise their landing gear;

Thanks ahead of time;

NickM

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Nick:

Donald Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary includes a very interesting account of Lang's last flight, which states that the Alfred Gross who was involved was his long time wingman (Caldwell also concludes that Gross shot down a RAF 41 Squadron Spitfire for his 52nd victory in this combat).

Gross was injured and hospitalised - not aware of his subsequent fate.

I do hope that some information comes to light about Lang's '18 victory day'. According to Caldwell, Lang, as well as being a brilliant pilot and dynamic leader, was very optimistic in his JG 26 victory claims. I will follow this thread very closely - hope some good information turns up!

Cheers

Boomerang

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Thanks Boomerang;
Caldwell's book is where I got my question from--so it's safe to assume Fred is Alfred; now...Lang may have been optomistic but Hannig left no doubt as to his skills when He watched Lang shoot down a pair of La5/7 practically in front of them...quick run, a short burst on one then a quick skid & a short burst into the second & both just blew apart & crashed;

NickM

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

***like, btt, dude***

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Some years ago another researcher sorted out the names given in Willi Heilmans book 'Alert in the West'. For Ltm Alfred Gross he had that Gross was posted to JG 26 with Lang and was Lang's long term wingman. Gross was born 4-10-19 ,was awarded the RK in April 1945, flew 175 missions claiming 52 victories (39 in the East). Gross apparantly died on 19-8-47 there was no note of the circumstances.

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

***btt****

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Lt. Alfred Gross died of tuberculosis of the peritoneum on August 19th 1947 at Tönning. He was the wingman of Hptm. Lang the day this one was shot down by a Spitfire pilot of the 41 Sqn. Lt. Gross claimed W/O Chattin before being himself shot down by another pilot of this Sqn.

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Hello Montana
You’re right concerning the 41st Squadron , they may claim the loss of Lang .

The 55th FG 38th FS bounced the 2./JG 26 near Zemst and the 338th FS bounced the rest of this flight near Baale , they shot down Kempf not Lang

Regards
Phil

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Sorry Nick, but am I missing something profound and esoteric in your "***like, btt, dude***'?

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

About those IL-2 missions - similarly, USMC F4Us flying from Peleliu (one of the Palau Islands east of the Philippines) in Sept 1944 provided close air support to Marine ground units on the island. Their targets were so close to the runway that the Corsairs didn't bother to raise their gear. Film footage clearly shows the gear down as the planes drop their napalm on hillside targets.

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

George:

All I can say is this: :D


NickM

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Yes...that's sort of what ran through my mind too...still, it doesn't look like there's that much info RE: Lang's 18 claims in the day; Guess I'll have to wait for the appropriate volume of 'BC/RS';

NickM

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

as the early Corsairs had their dive brakes linked with the wheel covers, it may as well be that on those shots in the footage, they have their dive brakes extended, making it look like as they still have their wheels down;

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Well it's been Four years; ***bump***

NM

A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day.
 

Hello Nick

I have now seen two different and separately compiled lists regarding the victories that Lang claimed on 3 November 1943. Both agree that he "only" claimed 17 victories that day. I have no idea about what Russian loss list have to say but he does appear to have been quite optimistic in his claims for what I have read.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day.
 

Norbert Hannig only saw TWO of the kills he scored; the actual Russian losses are what I am interested in learning;

NM

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

No, both the still shots and the film footage definitely show wheels down.

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Some inputto the original topic:
1) In 1943, there were no La7. So it could only be La5.
2) Involved in these battles was the 1.Ukrainian Front with 2VA, which included 5 ShAK (4GShAD and 264ShAD) and 291 ShAD. Now you can try to search for their specific losses, maybe better in a russian forum then here.

Re: A couple of ?? RE: Emil Lang's 18 vic day..
 

Joerg,

You forgot to mention 256 IAD and 235 IAD.

As regards to losses, all La-5s claims of II/JG54 and IV/JG54 are well in line with Soviet losses. In this case one of Lang's claims at 13.00 could be positively identified as La-5 of 3 GIAP, pilot killed. In contrary claims against Yaks are exaggerated to a higher extent, as only two Yak-7s were damaged and conducted belly-landings in 256 IAD.
I have no idea yet on the IL-2s losses.