Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are photos of a Caproni Ca.42 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/82-AEREO-CAP...0AAOSwsEtepfWP


and a close up of Caproni Ca.3 4081 which at one time served with 5 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/regia-aerona...4AAOSwhLlepdqJ


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay a photo of a Caproni Ca.4 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/foto-dellaer...oAAOSwUIler~2f


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.5 19598 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/CACCIABOMBAR...8AAOSwxN5WVP8W


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay a photo of Caproni Ca.3 Ca.1144 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Fotografia-o...wAAOSwmS1dibrL


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently the following Caproni photos can be seen on ebay:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/FOTO-Fotogra...MAAOSwrc9eygxz





https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...sAAOSw-m1eyR1q


Regatds,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on Delecampe a nice close up of a Caproni Ca.3 Ca.4080 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...483742455.html


Thanks to Bertrand for bringing the site to my attention. More tomorrow...



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on Delcampe is a photo of Caproni Ca.3 2348 at:


Caproni Ca.3 2348
https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...743190530.html



Has anyone any details of units which operated Ca.2348 at all?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are the following photos of Caproni aircraft :


Caproni Ca.3


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...QAAOSwSTFe5LT9


Caproni Ca.3 23170


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...gAAOSwH2Be5Pb7


Caproni Ca.5


https://www.ebay.it/itm/Foto-Fotogra...IAAOSwSMZe5PpR


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Clint

The Ca.5 looks very much like the Standard built s/n 42118.
Some other photos show a great similarity. Not seen this one before though....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Stig,


Well everthing aboyt the rear of the postcard points in that direction, though I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out...


The guy in the front cockpit does look as though he's wearing Italian headgear though or maybe not?


Happy to accept its a US machine if you've seen a lot of photos though. It would also explain the lack of S/N in the vicinity of the nose too.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Well Clint

The Italians (who were in the USA) watched like hawks over every step the Yanks took when they tried to get their production programme going.

If the Yank's stories about the whole thing is true, they couldn't even sneeze without the Italians asking why.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Caproni Ca.5 either 12233 or 12255 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/CARTOLINA-FO...sAAOSwKRtey91B


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Interesting shot Clint

First one I have seen outside the appx range of listed Caproni built aircraft.
So it is possibly a Breda built one.

Correct number? With my previous joodling about the French and Italian threes and fives, I think I pass.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Stig,


The only other entry I'd seen for a Ca.5 in the Ca.12*** was for Ca.12214 in Gentilli and Varriale I Reparti P.108, but that must be a transcription error as WDF 130 has photos of both 12220 and 1221 Ansalso SVA 5s.


Picking up on your reference to appx range of Caproni aircraft,is there anything helpful at all published on the Ca.5 ?


As for the last two numbers I would really need to see other Capronis from this batch to bet my shirt on the last two numbers on the machine in the photo.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Well Clint

I deliberately didn't mention the appx range, since you would just go mad.... :)

As is more or less normal by now, we have about half of them compromising SVA production.

The more we dig into all this, the more it feels (to me) there is too much guesswork involved and without being on the inside knowing why/how these guessworks have evolved it is difficult to have opinions.

None of our Italian researchers were "born yesterday". They are all very skillful and dedicated individuals who have spent more time than most checking archives etc. We also have to remember that with time theories evolve.

If you are interested, send me an e-mail or PM and I will give you the range.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Stig,


This time I'm actually supporting the writers. At least with photos,admittedly given that the script is in a legible style,its difficult to quibble so at least with that range of SVA aircraft its possible to say that it extends to at least 12221 and I 've what I think is a fairly reliable source for 12222, though the variant of SVA involved might be a different question.I'll email in a moment.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.3 4140 of 5 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/D0785-WW1-19...sAAOSw1NJfO86m


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently onebay there is a photo of a shot down C.E.P.2 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/XX8-Foto-WK1...8AAOSwDjlfS4HP


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are two photos of French Caproni bombers as follows:


CEP 1B2 No.31


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...120462663.html


CAP 2 Bn2 No.132


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...html#tab-terms


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a US (?) Caproni Ca.5 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/13383779212...8AAOSwmNBhCYF0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.3 Ca.2330 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/32483675574...0AAOSw07dhahh4


Are any of the units which flew Ca.2330 known ?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.1 Ca.480 at:



https://www.ebay.it/itm/393753733799...QAAOSwNDVhqMcC


and two Caproni Ca.3 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/393753733082...wAAOSwt59hqMb3


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.3 4058 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/185255313008...YAAOSwrUNh4GET


At one time this machine served with 6 Squadriglia,but not necessarily at the time shown on the photo.So can any assist in deciphering the name of the captain sitting in the cockpit?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.5 Ca.11649 in the company of a US DH.4 at:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/30432769662...0AAOSwK~5h7IUe


The seller has further photos both of the Ca.5 and Salmson 2 A2 of an American unit at:


https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item...+Army&_sacat=0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.2 Ca.1248 of 4 Squadriglia - a total write off


https://www.ebay.it/itm/205004552136...kAAOSwdrZm7o8f



Also Caproni C.3 Ca.2313 unit unknown.


https://www.ebay.it/itm/205004555104...EAAOSwTaBm7pBg



The author also has other photos of Caproni aircraft


https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_dkr=...1&_nkw=caproni



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Caproni Ca.4 Ca.5352



https://www.ebay.it/itm/356399563477...4AAOSw-fZnaEvB


The same seller has a photo of a Farman MF.14


https://www.ebay.it/itm/356399591121...Bk9SR4yeo5__ZA



Also from the same seller numerous photos of Italian interwar aircraft


https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_dkr=...litare%209x6cm



Regards & Merry Christmas,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebayi a photograhed of an interestingly marked Caproni Ca.3


https://www.ebay.it/itm/396093411356...Bk9SR7zpqvqGZQ



Possibly serialled Ca.4176, although other another serial number is certainly plausible.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo captioned as a C.E.P. 2,which is quite likely. SFA No.11 does leave open other possibilities however. But I wouldn't personally feel able to identify the aircraft by its engines.


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/306025104065...AAAOSwiyFnfQk2



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Nice find Clint!

The French Capronis are end endless problem to me.
Things are not made any easier with author's who should have researched the stuff often resort
to guesswork as I see it.

So time for me to start guessing as well.... :)

It seems to me like the Ca.1 and Ca.3 were ordered in the same number ranges, meaning that if
the numbers built in France (bought in Italy) are correctly given the French built Ca. 1 should be
No 1 - 14
The Ca.3 should thus be
No 15 - 50 (or possibly 59)
The imported Italian Ca.1 and Ca.3 were
No 101 - and up
The imported Italian Ca.5 were
No 501 - and up

The so called Ca.3 No 502 in Soltan/Davilla on page 134 is of course a Ca.5
Since I have yet to see a single French built Ca.5 (as claimed by S/D) is there really any
proof of that?

I am sure you have opinions on my ramblings here Clint. What do you think?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Stig,


As my sources are likely to be those used by yourself, I am tempted to just agree with the information you have provided.But anyway,since we're guessing...:)


My obvious concern is when we see machines like No.36 described as a CEP 1B2 in D&S. Could be. I certainly can't tell from the photo. This is why in my last post I suggested that it was at least possible that No.11 is a CEP 2 B2. Wildly speculative,but given the failure of the 1B2 due to being underpowered,might it be possible the the original 1B2 order was higher than 14 and that following cancellation,machines nearing completion were completed with the original SFA number and 2 B2 machines took some of the numbers of the canceled 1B2s,thus meaning No.36 for example is not an error on the part of D&S and that No.11 is a 2 B2... Like I say,speculation.


I see wisely Albin Denis has numbers 1 - 61 as CEP X. Very prudent. The only hope here is that new material is published it would appear.But note this from Luigino Caliaro at https://www.key.aero/article/caproni...ultimate-guide



'At least 90 aircraft were constructed under licence by REP, 60 of them CEP 1 Bn2 examples with rotary engines and 30 comprising CEP 2 Bn2 models using Isotta Fraschini powerplants. In February 1916 these tri-motors were assigned to the newly formed Escadrille CEP 115, part of Groupe de Bombardement (GB) 1. Based at Nancy-Malzéville, the unit flew its maiden combat mission on 22 June 1916. CEP 130 was formed during August 1917 and assigned to GB 2, which also incorporated CEP 115 in March 1918.' Different again,and from a reputable author.




Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

I have no Key account and can't recall anything by the Gentleman in question.
His unit details are already known

Main problem it seems is that each new author says something different without saying what
they base their difference upon.

There are too few identifiable photos around (for those who can see the difference)

What we can see are three different number ranges

I have No 11, 31, 36 (all CEP)
I have No 113, 132 (all CAP)
I have No 502 (CAP)
(I have possibly more photo evidence)

Any author really needs to fit that into the equation, or come up with a quoted document
that proves their point.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Stig,


Well this discussion has been useful. Searching further I note that Albin Denis has a page dedicated to the french Capronis which I had not earlier noticed written by a Jean Besnard.


http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ns_Caproni.htm



The headline with regard to the SFA numbers of french built machines is as follows


CEP 1 B2 Nos 1-60
CEP 2 B2 Nos 101-30


The page seems reasonably sourced.


This however,leaves us with the Italian Capronis.Can we definitely say that they received SFA numbers at all?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Interesting Clint

I wasn't aware of that page either.

But I find the initial parts somewhat sloppy and simplified. To call the Bristol-Coanda monoplanes
a "fighter" is just one of the oddities stated. Caproni never built any Bristol aircraft on licence.
Due to the two imported and assembled Bristol-Coanda by Caproni never made it at the trial also ment
the contract for further Bristols were canx. However that was only part of Caproni's problems.
I would say the liquidation of his company later in 1913 was the usual one, poor cash flew.
Total production of the Ca.1 about 1800? Give me a break. Alegi lists the total Italian production
of all the Ca.1 - Ca.3 as 659 of which the Ca.1 was 179!! Alegi's number also include some 200 Ca.3 built
postwar. The number of Ca.3 built up to late 1918 was 270

I also doubt the total Italian production of the Ca.5, given as 664.

Denis initial ramblings about the first flight of the H-P O/100 is way off.
Probably he is talking about 1915 and not 1914 since the ff of the O/400 was on 17 Dec 1915.

How does Denis explain the photo of a CAP 2 with No 132 visible? When I downloaded it, it was
said to be an Italian Ca.3 but now I am hesitant.

The problem of course is to see the difference between a CAP and CEP. The only certain way for me
is to see what it says on the aeroplane itself.
Then how do you see the difference between a CEP 1/CAP 1 and a CEP 2/CAP 2? With all the engine changes
going on a sort of "we take what we can get" situation arose and I am not the man to see all the
differences
Also since there is never any clear line drawn between the CAP/CEP 1 and CAP/CEP 2 on any photo
that I can see, at least I have a tremedous problem to see any difference.
All it says is CAP or CEP

At least the article confirmed my suspicion that no Ca.5 were built in France.
Five imported ones sounds reasonable.

Bottom line, to me, is that whatever number of the Ca.1 and Ca.3 imported by the French must
be included in the total somewhere.
We only have two number ranges. No 1 and up and No 101 and up unless we
take the bold step to say No 1 to at least 132

Phew, that was long.... :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hello Stig,


I think we'd be in a much stronger position to discuss the Italian built Capronis operated by France if Jean Besnard had also contributed to Albin Denis' page on CAP 130.


Let me make a suggestion and this could be completely wrong. Might it not be the case that the CAP 1 & CAP 2 machines did not receive a SFA number at all being foreign built.Thus removing the need to account for putative SFA numbers.



Followup question did the initial British built Sopwith 1.5 Strutters receive a SFA Number? D&S have the British serials,but no mention of SFA numbers. Likewise the two Short 184 retained their RNAS serials. Note,the above is far from conclusive.Is the No.502 for the Ca.5 definitely proven? I bet I'm overlooking something really obvious. So one way of ruling out my suggestion,are other foreign built machines known to have received SFA numbers?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Yes I thought about that possibility Clint but rather dismissed it since the French designated the
Italian built aircraft as CAP.1 or CAP.2

The CAP.3 (Ca.5) obviously got SFA numbers (I send over the best photo I have of No 502 to you)

But you could well be right that the French never assigned any SFA numbers to the Italian imported Ca.1 and 3s
Heaven knows how the military minds worked back then :)

Main problems as I see it, besides too little remaining documents, are:
a) How many Ca.1 and Ca.3 were imported to France?
If the number was big, why are there no photos of them?
b) Why were so many CEP 1 built compared to CEP 2? Soltan/Davila claims the CEP 1 was under-
powered and not much favoured while in Italy the type seems to have been quite liked.
c) Alegi claims 89 were built in France. The article above says 90 but does not account for the
No 132
d) Why did the No 1 - 60 (sic) carry these numbers on the fin while No 101 - 132 carried them on
the fuselage?

Interesting topic this one Clint!! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the photo. Very clear. This does not help my theory.



Another 'main problem is that with the exception of the CAP.3 there are,unlike other french manufactured aircraft,just to pick an example,the SOP 1, no type identification on the rudder. If it actually stated CAP 2 B2 how much simpler matters would be.


The lack of photos is certainly suggestive isn't it?


I think that based on the information that we have now seen,the underpowered CEP 1B2 were replaced by higher powered CEP 1B2, see the Jean Besnard piece for Albin Denis.


The beginning of ther elvant paragraph being


Cet avion est désormais dénommé dans l'aéronautique militaire française CEP 1 B2 puis 1 Bn2, quand son utilisation exclusivement nocturne est décidée. Equipé au départ de deux moteurs le Rhône de 80 hp et un de 100 hp, la version définitive est motorisée avec deux moteurs latéraux le Rhône 9C et 9J de 80 hp et un moteur entral propulsif Canton Unné P 9 de 130 hp.



So it seems that D& S are mistaken with their information. Incidentally the same information is still contained in vol.2 of Davilla's book for Aeronaut.Thus only the first few were underpowered.Not all.



So 90 machines of which 60 CEP 1 B2 and 30 CEP B2 built in France


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Hallo again CLint

I looked in the SHAA Les Escadrilles book and saw that they had a very interesting list
of aircraft under Esc 115 (actually made a table out of that) Unfortunately there is nothing
similar under Esc 130. At least CEP No 1 - 60 and No 101 - 126 are confirmed

Only one aircraft is stated in details as CEP 2 and that is No 20 in Jan 1917. All others are only
referred to as CEP.

What I don't understand is why the two units were redesignated from CEP 115/130 to CAP 115 (Oct 17)
and CAP 130 (Nov 17) if they never used any CAPs but only CEP?

The engines is total mish mash to me. It seems they used whatever engines they could lay their
hand on between 80 - 160hp. They probably re-engined earlier aircraft with higher hp engines when
available.

When doing so didn't they automatically create a CAP 2 instead of a CAP 1 or should we
call them CAP.1Bis?

Soon bedtime for me. Maybe I wake up tomorrow with a glimmering idea? That would be the day....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Caproni
 

Well Stig,


I believe we've gone as far as we can go on French operated, Italian built Capronis until further information,documentation or photos with SFA numbers outside those already alloted for CEP machines. As things stand we definitely appear to have aircraft,but even more definitely no known serials.


Here are some photos recently posted on ebay showing that it was in fact possible to put serials on your Capronis,albeit the sellers captions are a bit off with regard to types of Caproni shown:)


https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_dkr=...aproni&_sop=10



Regards,


Clint