Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

I am trying to establish when Sgt Eric Bann of 238 Squadron was shot down into the Channel during the Battle of Britain. According to Brian Cull's Battle for the Channel Pg. 233, he was shot down on 21 July, and Cull quotes from a letter from Bann, reproduced in Battle of Britain Then and Now, Pg. 352. The aircraft's serial number is not identified. However, there is no date on the letter and it is located in BoB Then and Now alongside RAF casualty listings for August 12. Patrick Bishop reproduces part of the same letter, in his BoB book, pg. 113, but adds the date of July 19. I can find no record of Batt being shot down in either July or August in the Form 540 and 541 ORB records for 238 Squadron, and his biography in Wynn only describes Bann being shot down once — on September 28, when he was killed. Can anyone shine a light on the correct date and circumstances for when Bann was shot down into the Channel?

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Peter: This has been discussed many times before:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...highlight=Bann

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Thanks Chris, I should have searched for it before posting -- however, the date of Bann's downing in the Channel is still unresolved.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

...and it would appear it will remain so. I have researched the 238 Sqn combats on 21 July 40 and no mention of him being shot down having contacted survivors from both crew Bf 110 and Do 17 crews

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Thanks Chris, will your Do 17 interviews be used in your new Do 17 Battle of Britain book? I have four of your Do 17 books already and have the new one on order!

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Not sure-need to finish Luftwaffe aces of 1940 & Do 217 first!

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Peter,

The suggestion of an unaccounted for total Hurricane loss greatly piqued my interest, as did his possible service in France during May 1940. Having read the letters referred to and then researched various documents I have come to several conclusions. Without meaning to offend anyone I have to ask was Eric Bann ‘shooting a line’ to his family back home ?
.
Firstly regarding his time in France with the B.E.F. The best information we have (‘MEN OF THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN’ (2015) by Kenneth G. Wynn) is that Sgt. Bann and Sgt. Batt joined 253 Sqn. at Kenley on May 17th, and were posted on to 238 Sqn. at Tangmere on the 21st. From May 16th to 23rd 253 Sqn. was rotating pilots and aircraft to France. The unit was very heavily engaged there on the 18th and 19th , and to a lesser extent on the 21st. This information from the 253 Sqn. ORB.

It seems most unlikely to me that the squadron had the aircraft and pilots to spare training brand new pilots in fighter combat. Sending them to France would have been a liability. Most likely it was decided to get them out of the way. The 253 Sqn. ORB is deficient in many ways for those of us researching the May 1940 campaign, but it does seem to list accurately all those pilots who flew in France and when, whether based there or in England. Therefore, especially due to the short time at 253 Sqn., I do not believe either Bann or Batt went to France in spite of what his letters suggest.

To support this I would also point out the similar case of Sgt. Eric Seabourne, a colleague at 238 Squadron. Wynn states after his training finished he joined 151 Sqn. on May 16th , later to 238 Sqn. on June 12th. In between he did not fly with 151 Sqn. because he had no experience on Hurricanes.

The action on 21 July 1940 with the Luftwaffe aircraft. The 238 Sqn. F.541 specifies 5 aircraft on the patrol from 1420 to 1515 hours. They included S/L Fenton and Sgt. Batt, but no mention of Bann. On the same page Bann is shown participating in another 5-aircraft patrol from1910 to 2015 hours on the same day but with no action. Bann flew on an early morning very short patrol on July 22nd (0830-0840) and later again (1215-1255), but there was no action on either. This is not consistent with a pilot being in the Channel for some time the day before.

I have looked at all the serials listed in the 238 Sqn. F.541 from July 1st to 21st, some 23 in all. All 23 can be accounted for. Between July 3rd and 20th some were damaged and sent for repair, some were lost. The rest were recorded flying on July 22nd or later. I could find no F.1180 accident card, AIR 81 casualty file or AIR 50 combat report matching such a loss. So no unaccounted Hurricane loss based on the above.

The letter that began this search has a line; “The C/O and two of us were out on an early morning patrol….”. In the period July 14th (when S/L Fenton took command) to August 5th Fenton and Bann flew together on patrols about 8 times, but only engaged the enemy twice on July 26th and 27th. The first was a 12-aircraft patrol but the second was just with 3 aircraft (Fenton, Bann and P/O Davis). Some details in the letter match those in the ORB, such as one bomber was claimed, the patrol was to protect a convoy and it was in the morning (0833-1017 hours). Bann flew P2947 on both of these sorties but this aircraft survived until lost on August 8th.

I note too that Sgt. Parkinson baled out of his Hurricane over the Channel on July 20th. He was picked up but sadly died the following day. All of this leads me to believe Bann was conflating a number of events on various dates but ‘spicing’ the story up for his family. I see no evidence that he baled out over or ditched in the Channel.

Hope this helps,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Good analysis Martin

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence - But yes Martin Very Good Analysis

I checked the RNLI List of Services for 1940 = And yes while it possible Life Boat not called out - their is no record for dates for any recovery - and yes iy could have been made ny RAF Motor Launch

Selsey Life boat called out to British Plane on 11th July and Weymouth to a German Plane on same date

on July 14th Weymouth Harbour lifeboat was called out to a British plane and 3 bodies recovered


from August the lifeboat crews were being called out to aeroplane of both nations multiple times

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

July 11th 1940 Airman was in Sea 3/4 hour 3.5 miles off Selsey Bill and was a Sqn Ldr - No name provided but add 'few days later airman awarded DFC' -- I wonder if this allows him to be discovered

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

UPDATE - Their is a reference in the RNLI Archives to other incidents
on July 19th 1940

JULY 19TH. - SHOREHAM HARBOUR,
SUSSEX. A R.A.F. aeroplane had come
down off Littlehampton, but the life-boat
was recalled as the pilot had got ashore
without help. - Rewards, £7 15s. 6d.

Can this airman be identified and I wonder if this is where Patrick Bishop gets the July 19th date from ?


Other incidents from this time period

JULY 20 T H . - MARGATE, KENT. An
airman was reported to have come down by
parachute in the sea off Kingsgate, but
nothing could be found. - Rewards, £14 3s. 6d.


JULY 20 TH. - SELSEY, SUSSEX. A
£29 3s. 6d. ; Peel, £22 14s.
British aeroplane had been reported down
in the sea fifteen miles south of Bognor, but
nothing was found. - Rewards, £15 10s. 6d.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Hi guys

Have been following the post with interest.

Firstly, for what it's worth, I feel that Eric Bann's memory is being unfairly treated by the suggestion that the letter's contents had been fabricated for consumption by his family. Surely, he was already a hero and didn't have to exaggerate or embellish - especially to his family.

The fact that there is nothing recorded in 238 Squadron's ORB is not evidence that the
incident didn't occur. Some ORB entries are so lacking in detail as to be literally worthless to researchers. I believe that my version of his 'shooting down on 21 July 1940' to be as feasible as any other interpretation of his account.

Regarding his time in France - this might be explained by the nature of the delivery of replacement aircraft during May. I have never found a list of replacement Hurricanes sent to France - or by whom they were flown. In fact, I only became aware that a pilot of the period, who I came to know very well, had flown a replacement Hurricane when I saw the entry in his logbook; and he was being trained as a bomber pilot and had no experience of flying a Hurricane.

And, after all, we have only recently learned about Jammy Payne's experiences from Forum researchers.

Perhaps Eric was one of those unsung, unrecorded young volunteers (or otherwise).

A a closing note, should you ever find yourself on the Isle of Wight, take a trip to Culver where you'll find a little pub. In the bar you will observe a picture of Eric and details of his death (on 28 September 1940); his Hurricane crashed in the vicinity, although his body was recovered from Brading marshes. You might also like to raise your glass to a hero.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Hi all,
Don't really have anything to offer regarding whether or not he was shot down earlier in the war.

I did know Gordon Batt quite well and on one occasion when I went to visit him he showed me, amongst other items, a yellow scarf.
The scarf was made by Eric Banns mother, she produced three, one for each member of yellow section. Bann was killed shortly after that.

Gordon cherished two things relating to his war service, the yellow scarf and a painting of three Hurricanes in flight by Harold Fenton.
I wished I had taken photos of the scarf, paintings and Gordons log books but at the time I didn't really think of it.

Regards
Gerry

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your reply. As I wrote in my first post I have no wish to offend anyone, particularly his family. I am very, very careful about anything I write here or elsewhere.

We researchers value greatly the personal writings of airmen and others and sometimes treat their written word as ‘gospel’ . Quite often as we know memory plays tricks, so we need to be careful and double-check anything stated as fact where possible. It is not a sin to exaggerate one’s deeds and experiences to one’s family and I am sure Eric never expected his letters to be scrutinized by later generations of strangers. He did not make any boastful claims, such as shooting down enemy aircraft.

However he made reference in two letters to possible operational service in or over France during mid-May 1940 and to a specific case when he was shot down into the Channel. The latter especially was noteworthy, considering how well the Battle of Britain has been researched (and of course there is still more to be learnt). It deserved to be checked for accuracy, not just accepted at face value and that is what I did. The ORB for 238 Squadron is quite good regarding operations, unlike many others as you rightly point out.

I certainly agree with the premise of ‘Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence’ as Paul McMillan wrote, being too long at this this game myself to believe otherwise. That noted I stand by what I wrote earlier, but I would love evidence to come to light to prove me right – or wrong. I wonder if Eric Bann’s log book survives somewhere as that would answer the above issues. One would hope his wife received it at some point.

BTW I have over 20 of the books authored or co-authored by you.

Hello Gerry,

On the subject of log books I wonder if Gordon Batt’s is still around. He and Eric Bann would probably have had very similar flying experiences in May 1940. I saw the references to the three yellow scarves in the letters. Very poignant considering two of the three would soon be lost.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Martin
I really do not think that the one would write hairy stories to one's parents. To a girlfriend, perhaps but parents?
That said, there is a problem of verifying the story. I have seen cases of names being mistaken in the ORBs (I can imagine Batt being confused for Bann and vice versa), some flights missed, etc. I am aware of wrongly entered serials or pilots and aircraft being borrowed to other units. By no means I claim your search to be wrong, just trying to find the logic. Have you checked RAF Middle Wallop ORB by any chance?

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Agree Franek. While researching my first book, I found a number of losses not recorded by 213 Sqn & found one on 25 Aug 40 that was only recorded on a casualty card as the pilot was slightly wounded. Trouble is in this case, all avenues to confirm it have been exhausted and yes, the logbook would help but unless the family had it, I fear it was one of many pulped in the early 60s.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

I would say that too many people are just uncritical in regard of documents. Missing losses, missing flights, erroneus pilot & aircraft data, this is quite common.
In regard of the Bann case, had it been a post-war story, I would not probably bore with it. If all the venues have been used, I doubt it. There are lots of records from various levels of command chain, most of them still gathering dust. Would they help to solve the case, I have no idea, but no doubt it would take a lot of time to review them all.

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Apologies for the belated reply, I have been away from my computer for several days. Many thanks for the responses, especially Martin for his very detailed analysis -- I think that you nailed this one!

Re: Sgt Eric Bann, 238 Squadron - Shot Down 21 July 1940?
 

Thanks Peter,

Martin.