603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

I am just (belatedly!) reading "The Greatest Squadron of Them All" volume 1, which deals with the history of 603 Squadron up to the end of 1940.
In the intervening 17 years, I am wondering if anything more has come to light about the serials of the aircraft involved in 3 losses:

5 October K9807 (P/O Morton) - Chilham

7 October N3109 (F/O Matthews) - Godmersham, parts recovered post-war

7 October ????? (Sgt Strawson) - into the Thames Estuary

The book notes the confusion between the aircraft involved.
I can't seem to find the serial of Sgt Strawson's aircraft anywhere.
Is it known please?
Thanks,
Andy

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

AIR81/3656 Sergeant J M Strawson: injured; shot down, aerial combat, Spitfire N3109, 603 Squadron, 7 October 1940.

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...=&qmem=&qdate=

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Paul,
What about Matthews, same day same Spitfire ???
Alex

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Gents,
Thanks for the inputs. So it would seem that K9807, K9963 and N3109 were the three aircraft involved.
However, it is still not clear to me which loss was which.
One of the links states:
"Air81/3656 has - Sergeant J M Strawson: injured; shot down, aerial combat, Spitfire N3109, 603 Squadron, 7 October 1940."
We now know that this cannot be correct. N3109 was excavated in Kent, and was the aircraft flown by F/O Matthews. Strawson crashed into the Thames Estuary and was lucky to escape with his life after having difficulty getting out of the aircraft as it sunk.
The obvious answer would be that the pilots' names in two losses on 7 October (K9807 and N3109) were reversed. That said, "The Greatest Squadron of Them All" maintains that Morton was flying K9807 when he was shot down on 5 October.
An interesting conundrum...

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

The Air 81 file (RAF Cas File)is an official govt doc and it puts Strawson on N3109 - now I can accept it could be wrong and that Matthews plane was excavated but can we be 100% sure the dig up plane was N3109 are there data plates around which confirm ? It is possible that the information at the time of the dig was wrong

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

That I cannot answer, but given that N3109 was at that time thought to have had a watery grave in the Thames, something must have led the excavators in the direction of that serial. Otherwise, knowing it was Matthews' aircraft, they would have identified it as K9807 (which Air81/3674 incorrectly lists as K9087 of course).
Is there anyone on here from the dig-era that can confirm exactly how N3109 was identified?

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

I have not seen the ORB record for the day but if it says Matthews was on N3109 then they may might have assumed he was - the point being the Air 81 though not fool proof are the official RAF investigation and may have access to info not in ORB and these were only put in public domain in last 4 years

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

The ORB record for the day does not help at all, as for some reason it only lists the third mission on 7 October (up 1544, down 1645).
Both Matthews and Strawson were lost on the first (morning) mission flown by 11 aircraft (up 0935, down 1110).
A second mission (up 1250, down 1420) was flown by 9 aircraft

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Andy I wonder if anyone around here was involved with the Dig and has access to any data plates recovered it may be able to determine if it’s a K or N ?

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Here is my take on these three losses (combining the threads here and on the RAF Commands forum).
.
I think ‘THE GREATEST SQUADRON OF THEM ALL’, Vol. 1 is one of the best RAF unit histories and that the authors did an excellent job. However when it came to 5/7 October 1940 they were hampered severely by the 603 Squadron ORB itself and that the release of the AIR 81 personnel casualty files was in the distant future.
.
The 603 Squadron F.540 for October 1940 seems to be missing and the F.541 only records operational sorties. Furthermore only one mission for October 7th is recorded (1544-1645 hours). Neither Matthews nor Strawson are mentioned because it seems they were lost on a morning patrol. Just to show how suspect the F.541 is, on the same page a mission for October 8th is placed above that of the 7th ! None of the three men feature in that mission list either so it probably was for the 8th and not the 6th . Also all bar two patrols listed in the F.541 for the entire two months of September and October 1940 are at squadron strength. I suggest many smaller size patrols and scrambles were not recorded and like quite a few other F.541s that it was compiled weeks after the events.
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I agree with Paul about the AIR 81 files. Quite often for 1939-1940 (at least) these AIR 81 files – or the F.1180 aircraft accident cards – are the only official contemporary evidence for the loss of an aircraft or airmen. In my experience, having seen hundreds of AIR 81 files, the serials often appear with typos as in the case of ‘K9087’ here for K9807. Equally many dates as listed can be out by a day or more. However it is much rarer for the serial to be wrong and to be able to prove it is wrong.
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Paul rightly cautions about data plates and identity for the aircraft excavated at Godmersham Park. It is noteworthy that Peter Cornwell in ‘THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN, THEN AND NOW’ (1987/1989) writes in some detail about the excavation and objects found for the Matthews aircraft (‘N3109’)at Godmersham Park, but no mention of data plates, etc. If such had been found it was Peter’s practice to note this as positive proof of the aircraft identity.
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In passing I would also refer to an article about John Strawson in the September 2001 issue of ‘FLYPAST’ magazine by Mark Whitnall. He writes that Strawson was on a morning patrol on October 7th when he was shot down but managed to ditch just offshore in the Thames Estuary and wade onto a beach. The author specifically highlights that Strawson was flying N3109 and that this was confirmed by the Air Historical Branch. Doubtless they were using the then almost unknown AIR 81 file trove as their source ! Furthermore Mark Whitnall notes – as does Peter Cornwell - that Matthews crashed at Godmersham Park at 10.45 a.m. and I mention this as proof of the morning patrol not recorded in the 603 Squadron F.541.
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The Form 78 aircraft history cards for the three Spitfires record their final fates thus;
K9963 ‘F.B.O. Cat. 3’ 5-10-40.
K9807 ‘F.B.O. (3)’ 7-10-40.
N3109 ‘F.B.O. (3)’ In sea 7-1040.
These match exactly the AIR 81 file details as noted by Alex Smart and taking everything into account I believe all three AIR 81 files correctly identify pilot to aircraft. However none of us have yet viewed these particular AIR 81 files but expect they would back up the above.
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I hope this adds to the debate and not to the confusion !
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Regards,
.
Martin Gleeson.

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Martin thanks for the detailed and illuminating reply

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

My thanks also to Martin for summarizing the situation.
I'm not an export in this field, but it had also struck me as strange that the ORB entry for 8 October was above that for the 7th, and that many missions were missing.
I guess they had more important things to do at that time...
I'm still curious as to why the Godmersham recovery was said to be N3109 - maybe we will never know.

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Andy see your PM’s

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

Thank you Gentlemen for you excellent response. It is most welcomed.
Re the 8th before the 7th in the ORB. I thought that it was a typo error to a 6. Was I wrong in that assumption ?
Again my grateful thanks for your continued support over the years.
Alex

Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940
 

I wonder if the lack of detail on the ORB is because maybe It as typed after the “event” It would be interesting if we could find out if the Adjutant was around that week