Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hello,

Currently on ebay is a photo of Pussmoth TD+IL at:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Militar...QAAOSw6NNfbwId

Does anyone know where this machine originated?



Circumstantial information inclines me to believe that this machine is the ex- DE-EDEQ which was based in Saxony at Dresden, so not far from Oschatz. Also there is a partial W.Nr 68 (?) so possibly Wnr 2068.



Regards,

Clint

Re: Photo Pussmoth TD+IL
 

Clint

This time I am pretty certain it is actually a DH 85 Leopard Moth.
Check the wheel struts....

The c/n is written on the fin, but the resolution is not good enough to see what it says.

There were 132 built before the war and one after
Quite a few went to France and the low countries, so unless you buy the photo or ask the buyer you will have a problem with this one. :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Pussmoth TD+IL
 

Hi Stig,


Stig, contrary to my initial reply I still think the aircraft is a DH.80A Puss Moth,for the reasons outlined in the additions to my first post. So I've amended both this post and the intial post and title again. Unless I canbe convinced that we're looking at a Leopard Moth.Apologies for the frequent edits.Amended again. Thanks for your evidence. Its a Leopard Moth.

Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi

In Feb. 1943 this plane belonged to FFS A/B 61, located in Oschatz.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

This is a DH85 trust me - the W/Nr 69 is part of the maker's construction No 7069 - issued as sold to France as F-AMYS
Can you please tell me where is the source for this being as FFS(A/B)61 and the date Feb.1943. On the reverse of the photo it is marked as Oschatz but the date is very unclear. Any ideas?

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Tom

I believe the date is 27 May 1941

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Flugbuch Helmut Stiller February 1943 FFS(A/B) 61

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi


I along with Stig alerted Malcolm Filmore (expert on DH 85) to the existance of this pghoto
He offers an alternastive to F-AMYS as follows:_


c/n 7094 (Gipsy Major #5941) CofA 4712 issued 4.3.35 to JEF de Kok. Regd PH-FDK [CofR 217] 12.3.35 to JEF de Kok, [director of Royal Dutch Shell], The Hague (based Waalhaven). Regd 7.9.37 to NV National Luchtvaart School, Ypenburg. Impressed into LVA as 963 9.39. Badly damaged in bombing Ypenburg 10.5.40; regn cld 7.9.40. On rebuild by NLS 8.40-4.41. Shipped to Germany 5.41.

So it was 963 with Dutch Forces, it should also be noted that TD+IL was also issued to Go 241A-1 021 so my question is can anyone say what was the build date for the Go 242?

Tony

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Tony

I thought you had Barry Rosch's production list.
According to that, WNr 0021 was built/delivered in May 1941, ie basically at the same time as 'our' Leopard was photographed.

And, yes I notified Malcolm. An opportunity for him not to be missed. :)

Will send you the list straight away.
BTW Rosch does not list any TD+IL at all, he has only WNr 0031 fixed as TD+IU plus others in the same range without any WNrs attached.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Thanks Stig
Barry lists 021 as :_


2./LLG 2 dam 90% 16.2.43 at Bagerovo (Bagerowo), Russia, hit obstruction when landing

So possibly the DH 85 took over the stkz and this lines up with Helmut Stiller FB

Tony
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Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hello Tony,


While it is not an area where I can claim any knowledge at all, is it possible that there were different Stkz systems for training school aircraft and those coming off production lines in large numbers?


With the above in mind are any other aircraft known with TD+I* Stkz from training schools? The Leopard Moth photo has May 1941 on the rear of the card, so it wouldn't have replaced the previously used Stkz of a Go 242 it would appear.





Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

I agree with Clint here Tony

The date, as I see it, on the flip side is 27 May 1941
I remember you, among a few others, believe the STKZ was not as unique as most others claim it to be.

I can absolutely see a certain merrit in pointing that out.
As with every human thought out plan, there are basically always some spanners thrown into such wheels.

I am also pretty certain when it happened it didn't bother the Luftwaffe very much.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hello Stig,


As I said I'm no Stkz expert and my question about seperate systems is possbly very naive because of that fact, but as a general question, I believe that there are many duplicate Stkz - if these are usually between those applied to training school aircraft and those assigned to aircraft coming off the production line of a factory does not a good case generally exist for two seperate Stkz systems rather than just the one?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi Clint


There was only one stkz systm but there are hundreds of duplications especially with French or Czech built a/c being the main culprits



I think in early 1940 stkz blocks were given to the Schules to use, there are many examples of W 34 and Fw 58 using the same stkz, probably when one type was replaced by the other type


Regards


Tony

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hello Tony,


It was because of the high number of duplications that I asked my question. Doesn't it seem as though the number of duplications is sufficiently high that it apears to be more than a series of accidents? Other airforces did,of course have erroneously applied serials, but not to this extent and if not an accident then a system?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi Clint,


On the old LEMB, there was a list in alphabetical order. Information was verified by photo or some named document. Duplicates were noted and verified. That site is no longer active. It is available to those who can still log in, but I can no longer see that portion of the site.


Best,
Ed

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hello Ed,


Its still available on Wayback at, for example:


https://web.archive.org/web/20140627...nnzeichen.html


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi Clint,


Thank you. So TD+IL is listed as a Gotha Go 242. It would be worth it to get permission to duplicate this information and add to it. I suspect some are unaware that this was/is out there.


Best,
Ed

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi


Coming back to the original theme DH 85 is the way the RLM dealt with c/n of foreign built a/c. Many Italian a/c were used as what the RLM put down as the c/n is nearly always the military MM serial, which in all cases was not the c/n

So if the had a DH 85 painted as 963 when they received it that would have been enough to call this the c/n


The photo noted by Clint shows w/n 96 that is just about readable so the 3 could also be there.


If it was F-AMYS they would have looked fpr the c/n which was 7069, on this basis I believe that Malcolm has found the correct a/c for TD+IL



Tony

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Hi Tony - Sorry to disagree on your interpretation of the said W/Nr of this aircraft. I see the W/Nr clearly showing 69 and not 96 and there does not appear to be anything after this. Of all the examples of Foreign types I have in German use the aircraft's original construction number was always maintained either used in documentation or marked on the aircraft (usually on the fin) . I have never known any case where the previous Air Force Serial No would be used - although sometimes when the Balkenkreuz was first applied the original markings may have been kept until the next re-painting. So I stick to my original statement that the correct W/Nr 69 points to this being De Havilland c/n 7069 and therefore ex-French F-AMYS.
I do agree with Tony in saying that there was only a single Stkz system which included those issued in blocks and mixed format to the various manufacturers. Usually a tight reign was kept on any duplication but I believe that any mistakes made were at Unit level.
The Go 242 W/Nr 0021 is listed as the 1st Type A-1 but it is always assumed as being TD+IK but there is no proof of this.

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Tom


96 is a typo!!



Tony

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Tom


For may cases of MM*** given as c/n you need to look at the enigma transcripts HW 5 at the PRO (760+ volumes) and numerous items in the German Document Collection (GDC) at Duxford


Tony

Re: Photo DH.85 Leopard Moth TD+IL?
 

Thanks Tony - The Italian MM system was adopted by the Germans on all Italian aircraft used by them. In my previous text I was referring to the majority of the other Foreign types used by the Germans who continued to use the original maker's c/n numbers. Sometimes when the production of Foreign types were carried on by the Germans they applied their own W/Nr often named as the RLM number alongside the MM number. This applied to the Savoia SM 82 and I have seen this system on the Dutch built Do 24s.
I have not seen most of the HW 5 documents but thanks for letting me know.