Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hello,

when were the codes of Bf 109 changed?
The codes were changed e.g. from ()6-12 to 6()12.
The () are standing for the round disc.
Do you have some concrete informations?

Thanks to all,
Sven.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Sorry no "hard documentation", but it appears during July 1937 and later.

It appears that the group of 109s arriving in July '37 (beginning with 6-17) had the codes on each side of the black disc. When the early ones with code behind the balck disc were repainted is not clear. For example a picture of 6-15 after capture by the Republicans in December 1937 shows full codes behind the disc.

But an undated picture of 6-10 with 14 kills on the fin, has the code changed from behind to both sides of the disc.

My reference is Laurerau's Condor from Hikoki.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Thank you very much.
So it could be that the early Bf 109 B flew in the beginning of 1938
with old codes? The painting and marking of 6-10 was completely changed.
But it would be interesting when this happend. The 6-10 survived the
Spanish civil war as I know.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

A bit out of thread, but where could we find the losses concerning the spanish campaign ???

Remi

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hello.

Before to answer to your question, I would like to give a chronology of the story of the 109
In Spain.

The four first 109 came in Spain for tests in December 36.At the end of February, March and April 37came 12 new 109 . these 16 109 had the old code with the two numbers (6 for identification of 109 and the personal code of the aircraft) after the black disc.

All these 16 109 had the particularity to have the big old wooden two-blades. I don’t remember if it was a British made or American made, but I Believe the English De Havilland

It was only in April 37 that these 109 entered in Campaign with the 2 J/88. The first air victory of a 109 was the 6 April 1937 by at this time the Oblt Günther Lützow and probably on the .6-5.

During May to July 37 came the second batch 22 109 B1and B2 which were used by the 1 J/88 under the command of Oblt Harro Harder.

It was during these moments that the codes changed and the first one to wear the new code was the 6.17 that is the answer.

About the second question, all the last survivors of the first 16 109 entered in workshop to be to transform in the standard with engine of B2 , the 2-blades VDM and with the new codes.

2 examples: the 6.6 was tested (Feb/March 37) by Lt Urban Schlaffer. At the 19th march when Oblt Lützow took the command officially of the 2.J/88, the 6.6 was the personal mount of Fw Herbert Ihlefeld. The plane has some problem and his pilot after a long period will have a new personal mount the 6.16 . The 6.6 after his transformation and his new code will become the personal mount at the 3.J/88 of Lt Franz Jaenisch one of the 2 wingmen of Werner Moelders. The plane will be written off the 25/07/38 after a bad take off.

The second example is the 6.7, it was tested by Lt Rolf Pingel. At the 2.J/88, it was the personal mount of Fw Norbert Flegel. When the plane came back after his transformation it will become the mount of Werner Moelders the new CO of the 3./J88. As the 6.6, the 6.7 finished their life in the Spanish Air Force, even for some a log time after the WWII.

But the most interesting thing is the 6.10. It was the mount of Peter Boddem, an outstanding and mysterious pilot, the first one of the German pilots to reach 10 victories. He was the wingman of Lützow (6.5) as Ihlefeld (6.6). Because there was not enough planes, the 3 pilots shared the 6.10 and When it came from transformation with the new code he had 15 bars on his fin. Many people thought it was the fin of the Aircraft of Mölders but not it was only the victories won in this plane by these pilots. It was written also on the cowling Aldertum, you can translate approx by antiquity or oldy, at this time it was the oldest 109 of the Legion Condor. When the 6.10 began a new life in the Spanish Air force, it will be also one the oldest 109 The C4-10 ( C for type B2) will finish his time in July 1951.

Bonsoir

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Bonjour,

thank you very much for your detailed informations!
That helps a lot!

Greetings to you and all others who read this thread,
Sven.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hello all,

you wrote that the 6.6 was the personal a/c of Herbert Ihlefeld.
Then he used the 6.16. Did he lost this plane too because he flew
with the 6.10? Do you have a date? What was the first a/c of
Peter Boddem? Any sources?

Are there any informations which victories were documented
at the fin of the 6-10? All 5 of Lützow? Who's else?
At last what was the originally painting of the first Bf 109 B?
Was it grey? And was this camouflage changed to green
concurrently with the new codes?

Before I forget, if the 6.6 and 6.7 both finished their life in the
Spanish airforce wasn't they older than the 6.10?

Thank you very much, maybe you can help here too.

Regards,
Günter.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Just a couple of corrections to Many's helpful post:

- There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.
- The wooden props were produced by Schwarz (sp?), and were used because the variable pitch props were not ready in time. Photos of Polenz' captured 6-15 show that the instrument panel was set up to have the pitch change mechanism, but it was of course not fitted as the aircraft still carried the wooden prop when captured.
- The first batch of aircraft to arrive were Bf 109As... they *may* have been coded as high as 6-18, there is still some confusion on the 6-17 and 6-18. (If we could find delivery confirmations in Spanish archives, that would be fantastic...)
- Presuming 6-17 and 6-18 were A models, there were 26 B-1s delivered to Spain, coded 6-19 through 6-45; five C's, from 6-46 to 6-50; and 35 D-1s, coded 6-51 through 6-86.


Lastly, this is somewhat tenuous, but it appears that the only 109s to carry the early insignia [O 6-##] were Bf 109As... this is still just a theory, but it seems to fit. Of course, if someone has info from the Spanish archives which contradicts and corrects the above, I would be very glad to hear it... there's still an awful lot of "grey areas" with the Spanish 109s!

Cheers,

Lynn

(Edit @ Kormoran: All of the Bf 109B-1s were originally delivered in a standard Luftwaffe 70/71/65 scheme, and later repainted in 63/65, although I cannot establish when this happened... all of the Cs and Ds appear to have entered service in 63/65. That scheme was applied over the factory splinter scheme [ref photo of 6-74 in Laureau's book with the forward fin fairing off].)

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hello Lynn,
You say in your book that the early spanish Bertas are actually Antons. I think this statement could be somewhat risky without documental proof. It is said that Antons were built with the V2 as a model and prototypes from V3 backwards are completelly different to Bertas.
By the way, in spanish archives there are nothing...
Cheers

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

AFAIK there were just a couple of Antons delivered to the Condor legion.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

What would be these two Antons? Could be 6-2 one of them?

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Fran, you'll note I was careful not to phrase it as "gospel" in the book! :D I know too well the risks of stating something absolute in the absence of definitive proof (and sometimes, even when you DO have the proof, you still get called out on it). All of the evidence I list in the book for this conclusion is what legal experts would call "circumstantial", but I do feel that taken together, it forms a good basis for a "reasonable conclusion".

And I will be the first one to offer congratulations to anyone who can offer concrete proof one way or the other, helping us definitively resolve the Spanish 109 situation. :)

Cheers,

Lynn

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hi,

as I understand right, are the first 16 Bf 109 maybe V versions, A or B,
is this right? All 16 a/c had originally the old wooden 2-blades.
When was the modification with new VDM 2-blades? Do we have some
documents here? Is it possible that some of the first Bf 109 flew with old
codes and maybe with old wooden 2-blades until spring 1938?
Do we know the fate e.g. losses of these first Bf 109?

Regards,
Sven.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Yes you are right, Lynn
I not regretted buying the book anyway; one always learn something.:D
The lacking of official archive just leave place to speculations analizing photos. That's all we can do...

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Well, actually there were only 109 Bs in the various Mtt handbooks on the a/c.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Hello Lynn.

Firstly, I would like to tell you that I enjoyed your book. I think I was one of the first to buy it the last year at Telford, I was there at the stand of TMA ( Airmagazine, Ciel de guerre, Hsairmag & Les Ailes françaises. )

At the end of my reading of your book I learnt many things, but it was for me like not enough thing, maybe too synthetic. At last I must say BRAVO ! for your work


Just a couple of corrections to Many's helpful post:
Thank you

- There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.

As historian, you are, Please never say: There was never a "Bf 109B-2, till today maybe there was never a “Bf 109B-2”, but if you wait 2 or 3 years more, I am going to publish first a special issue about the Slovak 109, and after I will publish a special issue about all 109 used by Germans in Spain and maybe, You will be very surprised. For the others they will the proof that the 6.5 was the first mount of Lützow

- The wooden props were produced by Schwarz (sp?), and were used because the variable pitch props were not ready in time. Photos of Polenz' captured 6-15 show that the instrument panel was set up to have the pitch change mechanism, but it was of course not fitted as the aircraft still carried the wooden prop when captured.

This wooden prop produced by Schwarz was in fact at the beginning an English licence (De Havilland). Don’t forget The wooden two blades Watts on the first Spitfire and the first Hurricane. It was the same period

- The first batch of aircraft to arrive were Bf 109As... they *may* have been coded as high as 6-18, there is still some confusion on the 6-17 and 6-18. (If we could find delivery confirmations in Spanish archives, that would be fantastic...)

Forgetting the question of the type A or B, The first Batch go to 6-1 to 6-16 That all.For me there is no confusion the first of the second batch was 6.17. You have many different photos of the 6.17 with the evident German Camo 70/71, for myself I have 3 but I don’t have any photo of 6.18 and I will be the first surprised to see one, But I believe in tomorrow, and I hope to see one day a photo of this 6.18.

- Presuming 6-17 and 6-18 were A models, there were 26 B-1s delivered to Spain, coded 6-19 through 6-45; five C's, from 6-46 to 6-50; and 35 D-1s, coded 6-51 through 6-86.
My dear Lynn you follow the excellent work of my close friend Patrick Laureau, but even it is a very, very good work, I am not sure it is the truth.

For example in the special issue n° 5 Avions: les Messerschmitt espagnols of the famous historian Juan Arraez Cerda, you see Page 16 & 17 some photographs of 6.60 of Schob ( and I have seen the originals this 109 is for me a “ C “. The well known foto of the plane of Walter Oesau is for most people a B but there is another photo where you see in close up the cowling of the same plane and it is evident in this foto we are in front of a “D”. So the way is long, long to understand where is the truth... It is the charm of reseaches...

Thank you

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Having a quick look at my notes Bertas serials ran in the high 50s up to 6o56 for sure, from then on there was a mixture of both C and D. And frankly from my studies i doubt they the C and D were given separate serial blocks.

As far as the B-2 or B-1 goes i haven't seen B-2 being mentionned on official papers so far. Maybe it was used at the unit level by the mechanics to distinguish between the two variants, but neither the RLM nor Mtt seem to have used such a terminology.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

I guess I'll get no more satisfying reply to my questions.

Thanks to all.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Many, thanks for your kind words, and I appreciate you sharing your information... you are of course right, "never" is a strong word when dealing with such a topic as the 109. :) I had heard that the Schwarz props might have been license produced, but was not certain... your info seems to confirm this, so thanks for that. As regards the C models, yes, I based that on not just Laureau's info, but that of Mombeek as well- truly, the only way to identify a C model in photos is if the cowling is off, so unless a delivery record, further photos, or a logbook showing C model codes is found, it seems we only have educated opinions to go on. The whole affair with the early 109s in Spain is quite maddening to me, as there is so much uncertainty surrounding so few aircraft... the one thing of which I am absolutely certain is that my work is not the last word on the topic! :) I wanted to at least present a fresh look at these aircraft based on photos and what I considered reliable sources... if it helps foster further research and we uncover the "real" story, I will be very glad indeed.

Thanks again-

Lynn

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Gentlemen

Early 109's are tricky to say the least!!
However if we keep in mind that in Spain the He 51 were decidedly outperformed with the Legion Condor, I am pretty convinced that for political reasons the Bf 109 were rushed over as soon as they could be built. If Willy could be stood on "trial" here, I also would be pretty certain that he would have NO idea what was an A model or B model, unless he could produce some documentation out of his back pocket. The early A models were not 100% the same, but included slight modifications as they were produced. Not even the exact same engine type was used (if Radinger/Schick are to be belived). According to both these gentlemen most of the A's were sent to Spain including its prototype WNr 760, the V3. That means we have a possible 17 A-airframes going to Spain.
I for one believe this is basically correct. Possibly the whole first batch, besides prototypes were A-models. Spain took basically a large number of what the Germans could produce at this stage. Has anyone ever sent prototypes of its future main fighter into a war conflict before? Politically it seems one was more or less possessed with winning the conflict....

By the way, can anyone produce a correct list to Patrick Laureau's 109 pages in his book Legion Condor? The first line, in the table on page 95 being out of line, makes his whole listing suspect. Anyone??

Cheers
Stig

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

AMEN ! ! !

Thank you for me too.

I hope to meet you at Telford this year.

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

Resurrecting an old thread...

Enjoying the new German Eagles in Spanish Skies by David Johnston. One area of interest, at least to me, is the assertion that the Bf 109 C never reached Spain. I am inclined to believe his claim at the moment. Photos I have of aircraft attributed to the Bf 109 C, within the 6-46 to 6-50 range, show features that are attributed to the Bf 109 B.


Mark Proulx

Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor
 

This maybe old news. For those interested in the 109 in Spain there’s a new book out by David Johnson titled “German Eagles in Spanish Skies”.

Charlie