Losses IV./KG76
 

Hello
I'm looking for losses of IV./KG76 from Febrary to August 1944.


Thank you, Rene

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hi Rene,

Jan Horn in his verluste appendix for IV./KG 76 in KG 76: Die Chronik ..., (2019), pp. 387-391 has thirty-two entries between the start of February and end of August 1944, but identifies fully only fifteen:

18.02 Ju 88 A-4 88 3548 F1+MW
03.03 Ju 88 A-4 140 136 F1+EW
23.03 Ju 88 A-7 88 6166 F1+AV
23.03 Ju 88 A-14 144 227 F1+CW
24.03 Ju 88 A-4 88 3522 F1+OW
12.04 Ju 88 A-4 0720 F1+AW
23.04 Ju 88 A-4 88 4609 F1+CW
27.04 Ju 52 640 205 DU+ZO
29.04 Ju 88 A-7 88 4222 F1+QV
03.05 Ju 88 A-4 88 4609 F1+CW
O5.05 Ju 88 A-4 140 069 F1+AU
12.05 Ju 88 A-6 088 2442 F1+IV
25.05 Ju 88 A-4 6767 F1+HV
23.06 Ju 88 A-4 140 382 F1+AU
29.07 Ju 88 A-4 0726 ?

best regards,

Jim

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Presumably a typo, or the first mentioned was not an actual loss:

23.04 Ju 88 A-4 88 4609 F1+CW
03.05 Ju 88 A-4 88 4609 F1+CW

Regards,
Andy

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hi Andy,

Indeed, I should have put a "[sic]" beside both. Horn ascribes "100 %" to the first and "besch" to the other,

Jim

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hello

Many thanks!
The reason is, the crash site of a Ju88 bomber was located about 6 km southwest of Finow Air Base. Date etc. is unknown. There must have been deaths.

Rene

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

My one penny. Tried "inspect availablle data on this a/c" as it seems be victim of not precise or not undisputable info.
- 23.04.1944, Yes. BF killed.
- 03.05.1944, Pilot Ofw. P. Stammen injured.
- First (23.04.44) I think damage in "Uberslag" (and BF killed) be too much for it be flying again just 13 days later (so it can be maybe wrong W.Nr. given for F1+CW on that date, besides F1+CW was 144227 on 23.03.1944.)
But 088/4609 was already with IV/KG 76 in October 1943 (one 20% or 20% Er on 14.10. and 19.10.43 I think be same) and it has "paper transfer out" 01.44 (but was not really "out" as likely only to Junkers Blagnac for inspection or overhaul) but 884609 had final crash (100%) in August 1944.
... and 0880144609 (other 4609 has 100% in July 1943 at II./KG 51)
-Ed

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hello Ed,
I couldn't find the loss for the 144609 in 1943...., where hv you found it ?


Rémi

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Thank you, Ed. Your knowledge of Junkers aircraft is invaluable.

Rene,

In that time frame, Horn records seven Ju 88s with fatalities. I include the "ort" as given by Horn. You will have to decide for yourself if any fit your parameters.

23.03 Ju 88 A-7 88 6166 2 km. SO Eberswalde 4 killed
23.03 Ju 88 A-14 144 227 12 km. N Minken/OS 4 killed
23.04 Ju 88 A-4 88 4609 Fl.Pl. Finow/Mark 1 killed - see Ed's comments above!
29.04 Ju 88 A-7 88 4222 15 km. NW Bernau/Mark 4 killed
05.05 Ju 88 A-4 140 069 Bei Rugenwalde bei Eberswalde 4 killed
12.05 Ju 88 A-6 088 2442 Nordufer Plonsee, 1,5 km. O Luptow 4 killed
23.06 Ju 88 A-4 140 382 Marienwerder/Mark 4 killed

Jim

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Remi, wow, I can not believe you have to ask. You have all this, July 1943, page 63. But its not "144609" just "Jagerbeschuss 4609 (9K+HN)" but the other is known be (0)884609 - Later! - Ach.. so, this other is presumed be 0880144609 as no other duplicate in 1943 - Not until Ju 88 G-1 (714)609 ("609 BAL 09.08.44." from an logbook), but I warn: GQM has more errors than readily expected.
Reference: "Flugzeugunfälle & Verluste bei dem Verbänden" (Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.) 26.07.1943, Page 6, Lfd. 58 :
first entry: 4609 9K+HM lost 22.07.1943 (Archangelskoje) (BAMA RL 2 III / 1191)

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

I see some have full WNr. but others not. So this here below be "full" as I see them (and research, verified by actual plates) how their W.Nr. appeared on the Typenschild under the cockpit, near the ladder entrance. The various writing styles on tail, in references and books, against what stood on their papers or compass cards etc., is how it was used. The W.Nr. 0880xxxxxx had reasons. Against what most think, assembly of A-4, D-1, C-6 was NOT in strict nummerical order at (JFM) FZB, not starting at 0001, this throwing some tables in Medcalfs in the junk. Beside there were usually no spaces nor dots in the W.Nr.s. I have seen spaces but only on "remake" (like when and Ju 86 in "12xx" range became "086 5xxx").

23.03 Ju 88 A-7 0886166 2 km. SO Eberswalde 4 killed
23.03 Ju 88 A-14 0880144227 12 km. N Minken/OS 4 killed
23.04 Ju 88 A-4 0884609 Fl.Pl. Finow/Mark 1 killed
29.04 Ju 88 A-7 0884222 15 km. NW Bernau/Mark 4 killed
05.05 Ju 88 A-4 0880140069 Bei Rugenwalde bei Eberswalde 4 killed
12.05 Ju 88 A-6 0882442 Nordufer Plonsee, 1,5 km. O Luptow 4 killed
23.06 Ju 88 A-4 0880140382 Marienwerder/Mark 4 killed

-Ed.

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Thank you, Ed, for the tutorial. I can see the patterns of Werknummer series emerging. I presume Jan Horn simply copied the numbers given by his sources.

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

You are right Ed, but Matti, turn it to 144604, probably readen in NVM, he will confirm


Rémi

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Rémi:
I have made a mistake when putting together my database and 144604 is not correct.

Rémi and Ed:
I tried to put my ever diminishing brain cells to do something useful as follows.

This loss on 22.07.1943 is both in GQM and NVM reported by 5./KG 51 as 4609, which in my opinion should be 0884609 (Reasoning: 5./KG 51 had from this batch also 0884605, 0884606 and 0884608) and not 0880144609.

The four other losses reported with same WNr. 4609 by IV/KG 76 (14.10.1943, 19.10.1943, 23.04.1944 and 03.05.1944) are 0880144609, because 0884609 had been lost already on 22.07.1943 and 3./Fl.ÜG 1 West reported 144609 lost on 01.08.1944 (Absturz infolge Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 100 %.) possibly after having been repaired after belly landing on 03.05.


If this guesswork is correct, we would have minor problems only inside one Gruppe: IV/KG 76 (possible duplicate 14.10 versus 19.10 and short time between 23.04. and 03.05.). Otherwise the situation would be clearer.

Waiting for your comments (please, don't shoot the pianist!).

Matti

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Seems a fair thought! Matti, nd as Ed said losses for 14.10.1943/ 19.10.1943 nd 23.04.1944 / 03.05.1944 are same, usually, Lwf not really in a hurry to repair planes
Rémi

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Can not find this anywhere as 144609.

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

At WASt in the Luftwaffe Loss Folder 269 there is a NVM, which has the following:


1944-08-01, 3./Fl.ÜG 1 West, Ju 88 A-4, 144609, Osternburg, 3 km südöstlich Oldenburg
Flugzeugführer Uffz Schmietenknop, Georg, +
Bordfunker Obgfr Zörner, Heinz, +
Bordschütze Gefr Baumann, Adolf, +
Absturz infolge Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 100 %.

Matti

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

884609 in Schulen u. Sonstige for FluG 1 (RL 2 III / 780 P.60).
884609 in Verband losses for IV/KG 76 (RL 2 III / 1196 P.7 06.11.43)

We can agree

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Strange, but not the first time, when GQM and NVM have different information. So, final solution remains to be seen, although (again) I find the NVM more reliable.

Matti

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Not so easy usually... but the case here particulary crooked,

Rémi

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Every story case has beginning, middle and the twist...

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hello
Thank you for the answers. 05.05 Ju 88 A-4 0880140069 Near Rugenwalde near Eberswalde 4 killed--there is no Rugenwalde near Eberswalde. It could be Ringenwalde , 25km NW Eberswalde.
Do you also have the names of the crews from these losses:

29.04 Ju 88 A-7 88 4222 15 km. NW Bernau/Mark 4 killed
05.05 Ju 88 A-4 140 069 Bei Rugenwalde bei Eberswalde 4 killed
23.06 Ju 88 A-4 140 382 Marienwerder/Mark 4 killed ?

My Ju88 crash doesn't have to be from IV./KG76, it's just a guess.
Could be Ju88 884222 15km NW Bernau , 15km NE Bernau? 15 km NE Bernau is the crash site.
Greetings, Rene

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

NVM clearly says 4609:

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Peter et all,

I am confused. I have written 144609 almost ten years ago when copying data from the NVM into my database, without adding any note that it is in the original document 4609. Therefore, when looking at my computer I sincerely thought it to be 144609.
Anyway, this Ju 88 still could be the 4609 of IV/KG 76.

It is better for me now to retreat to lick my mental wounds and give the arena to others who know better.

Matti

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

No need to be sad. Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. It's just history. :)

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

With hundred of thousands losses, one , two or ten mistakes is quite normal, stay with us , Matti, the russians will soon load mass of new docs, ,maybe the ones related to 1944..., who knows?

Rémi

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

History has bad reputation, often be so wrong.

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hi Rene,

"29.04 Ju 88 88 4222 15 km. NW Bernau/Mark 4 killed"
F Ogfr. Fraas Erwin
B Fw. Pfitzmann Werner
Bf Gefr. Domzol Johann
Bs Ogfr. Sauer Wolfgang

"05.05 Ju 88 A-4 140 069 Bei Rugenwald bei Eberswalde 4 killed"
F Ogfr. Reifenstein Hans-Dieter
B Ogfr. Hennig Gerhard
Bf Ogfr. Leckow Martin
Bs Fw. Elsner Willi

"23.06 Ju 88 A-4 140 382 Marienwerder/Mark 4 killed"
FL Fw. Hecklau Werner
F Uffz. Flemming Hans
Bf Ogfr. Krammer Hans
Bs Fw. Weissner Franz

I hope this is sufficient to your inquiry.

Jim

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hi Jim
Thank you very much.
Rene

Re: Losses IV./KG76
 

Hello
A quick check of the following names at the Volksbund shows the death place Falkenhagen, some km ENE from Fürstenwalde / Spree.

"05.05 Ju 88 A-4 140 069 Bei Rugenwald bei Eberswalde 4 killed"
F Ogfr. Reifenstein Hans-Dieter
B Ogfr. Hennig Gerhard
Bf Ogfr. Leckow Martin
Bs Fw. Elsner Willi


The rank from FF is there "Oberfähnrich".
Rene