A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

I am not sure if the subject was already discussed before
therefore I would welcome any feedback from those
who read Russian publications as into the grounds which
led to the loss of a DB-7 flown by Maj.Gen. Tokarev
commander of 1st MTAD of the Black Sea Fleet Air Fleet on
30.1.44 near Evpatoria , Crimea .

From WWII German and Romanian reports the Boston got hit at
about 12:30 hrs during a second pass by UJ-301 AA guns
which was on anchor just shortly after the DB-7 fired a torpedo
from an altitude of 3000 ft, torpedo which missed the target
causing the aircraft left wing serious damages forcing the
crew to perform an emergency landing during which
Tokarev was killed. After the landing German , Russian
and Romanian reports are conflicting as into the
Tokarev's crew fate and their actions in the aftermath
of the crash including Tokarev's burial .

Of a specific interest would be a photo of the A-20 "Za Stalina " .

Cheers
Alex K

PS : 36th MTAP Boston DB-7 which departed Gelenjik field

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Good afternoon, photo A-20 with the inscription " Za Stalina!" it was discussed several years ago on Russian-language aviation forums (in Ukraine and in Russia) - at that time it was put up for sale on eBay. In General, there was an opinion that this photo "with a high degree of probability" does not apply to the case of the death of General Tokarev. The photo shows several indirect facts that contradict the version about the loss of the aircraft 1 MTAD 30.01.1944.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Hello ,

I posted the message and photo on the Naval Forum
for Miroslav Morozov . The A-20 photo from Ebay is a 100%
match of Tokarev's plane crash site ,the photo was taken
on Dec 30,1944 North of Evapatoria . The deceased body laying
on the broken dome of the aircraft is Tokarev's body left there by
his crew members who fled ,discovered later on by a German
patrol and on the same evening buried by villagers . If you
saw the photo , it shows the A-20 with inscription "Za Stalina "
as mentioned on the German reports the badly damaged left wing
and stabilizer are clearly visible. Beyond any doubt is Tokaraev's plane .

PS : some of the his crew members fell captive and were in hospital
in Sevastopol until city's liberation but all committed suicide in Nov 44
prior NKVD arrival to the base as part of an inquiry into Tokarev's death

Cheers
Alex K

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Aleks

First of all is it possible to see the photo in question?
Also does the A-20 have any ID, ie serial number?

Secondly we have initially a date 30 Jan 1944 stated by you twice and also given by Kirill in his answer (post 2)
All of a sudden you are now talking about a date 30 Dec 1944 (post 3). While I suppose it is possible for an aircraft wreck to stay put in 11 month I find it hard to be believe that the body of the General would have been left out for that long.
Since you also mentions some crew member's suicide in November (presumably 1944), I take it that the month December is wrong?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

I've seen a copy of this photo on several forums. There were opinions of some experts that the photo shows the plane in the A-20B modification. This modification had a weak reservation, weapons, there were no protected fuel tanks and the aircraft was not adapted for mounting large bombs and torpedoes (it required a lot of refinement). This modification was very outdated by the beginning of 1944 in General and in particular was practically not used in the VVS of Fleet (only rarely in as a scout). It is very strange that such an aircraft was flown by a division commander in 1944, when the entire division was armed with upgraded a-20C and A-20G aircraft. There are also questions - why did the major General of the fleet in 1944 wear the uniform of the red army, which is not typical for the fleet? This refers to the "trousers-breeches" ("sharovary", "galife"), which can be seen on the body of the deceased pilot. In Naval aviation, this element of clothing was canceled in the fall of 1941 and generally fell out of use by naval pilots by the end of 1942. Did the Navy General dislike regular uniforms? Also a question - why was the pilot's body lying in the Navigator's cabin? Pulled out of the cockpit (it's open) and put the body in the Navigator's cabin? The photo also shows a snow-covered landscape and very warm clothes of soldiers, which is not typical for Yevpatoria in January-February (in those years the average temperature there was about 0 degrees Celsius). In General, the photo raised a lot of questions during the discussion, so that we can't definitely talk about the version of the loss of 30.01.1944.

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

From eBay (2016)
http://scalemodels.ru/images/2016/03/1456784102__57.jpg

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Thanks Kirche

Cheers
Stig

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Major Markin Nikolay Andreevich, 19.12.1907-10.12.1944.

The Navigator of the aircraft of General Tokarev. He died of poisoning with a methyl mixture on a/f Vaenga-1 (Murmansk region) as part of a group of people (according to memoirs, up to 20 people were poisoned, according to documents, at least three senior officers died in addition to Markin and one chauffeur sailor). Apparently his "suicide under the threat of the NKVD" was mentioned in some sources?

N. A. Markin was released from captivity 14.04.1944 and continued to serve in his regiment, was awarded the medal "for military merit" 03.11.1944. Apparently the threat of his arrest from the category of a legend (or most likely it is the wishes of individual colleagues who blamed him for the death of their commander)

air gunner-radio operator senior sailor Goncharov Vasily Trofimovich, 1923
He was awarded the order of the Red Star on 27.08.1945 by order of the 2nd Gw. MTAD named after General Tokarev.

released from captivity on 03.05.1944 and tested in OKR "SMERSh" VVS ChF (if he continued to serve in the same division and was awarded later, then apparently there could not be serious charges and harassment from the NKVD)

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Stig

Dec 30 , is a typing error

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

OK Aleks

So 30 Jan 1944 it is then!
No serial number for the A-20?

Cheers
Stig

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Yes I agree that are many open questions even as into the clothing
of the deceased airman which I can't answer , I am not certain but
I think Tokarev was the single to die on that crash, why he was
laying dead on the aircraft's dome only his crew can answer . His
entire crew fled from the crash site and Tokarev's body was left
behind . The villagers buried his body late night .

What I can answer is that Tokarev had little flt.training on A-20 and some
people attributed the failed torpedo and the later crash to this issue .

As into the Germans seasonal clothing I fully disagree with you !

Finally here are a few hinds matching Tokarev's crash event :

1) The left wing and stabilizer badly hit ( mentioned on the German report)
2) According vets of BSF Flt School Yeisk only his A-20 was named
"Za Stalina " .

3) The A-20 seen on the photo was part of late 1943 delivery to the BSF from
Jukovsky after naval modifications .

4) The Krasnodar Kuban Kazak soldier seen along with the German soldiers is
perhaps an other clue as into the crash location

5) According German Navy reports the A-20 crashed NE of Evpatoria
while making a hard belly landing which is matched on the photo.

6) Photo posted on Ebay was labelled as taken in Crimea early 1944

Finally I did not post this photo at ScaleModels Russia but at Russian
Naval Forum which probably copied the thread into theirs .


Alex K

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Good afternoon,
at ScaleModels copied it's foto 01.03.2016 from:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/7751a-orig-Fo...turztem-Flugze ug-/351662581300?hash=item51e0b92634:g:rswAAOSwUuFWz0U I

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

interview with former Deputy squadron 5 GV.MTAP Minakov Vasily Ivanovich:
https://iremember.ru/memoirs/letchik...-prodolzhenie/

Memories of veterans are always subjective and may not be accurate, but if you believe this interview, then General Tokarev could not have "his" personal A-20 with a personal inscription. According to the veteran's memoirs, he usually flew on the Il-4, and the departure on 30.01.1944 on the А-20 plane was spontaneous. This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that major Markin and radio operator Gavrilov were not the regular crew of the division commander. According to their positions and according to Minakov's memoirs, they were a flight commander-level crew. Markin was only an adjutant 1st squadron of 36 MTAP - not even a Navigator of the squadron. And the full-time Navigator of General Tokarev was the Navigator of the division Khokhlov Pyotr Ilyich. But usually, since the fall of 1941, General Tokarev flew with the Navigator of the 5th Gw. MTAP, gw. major Tolmachev Alexander Fyodorovich.

If the commander of the 1st squadron of the 36th MTAP Captain Obukhov Petr Nikolaevich was originally on the sortie with General Tokarev, then there is a possibility that the general flew on the plane of one of the flight commanders of this squadron. Unfortunately, I have no information on the aircraft of which modification it was and what its number.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Tokarev had his own A-20 with inscription "Za Stalina " the photo proves it
and what Minakov and other wrote is fine but not directly related . Tokarev
attended in summer 1943 the Moscow German and Axis captured equipment
display while still Colonel it was when he met again with Kalinin and Stalin
and it was also when he started briefly to train at Jukowsky on A-20 before
returning to Gelendjik . This A-20 was the single of the BSF to carry such
inscription . I know is hard for you to believe all this , I studied this subject
quite a long time and the conclussion is on my post but OK also in the past
we did not agree on Russian WWII subjects therefore you are entitled to
continue to hold on to whatever conclussions you may have in mind

Alex K

PS : a) Check the attached Soviet footage dated summer 1943 , Tokarev can
be spotted on part 1

b) Attached his photo prior a flight , as into your remarks regarding
his flight clothing worn on Jan 30,1944 which was similar to this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM4SjCCQ_yk

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

I generally accept any conclusions if there are no conflicting facts and opinions based on the actual materials that everyone can see on any issue. To clearly speak for myself on any issue, I need to be a witness to what happened in person (and this is not possible for WW2). To believe any (even the most experienced and respected researcher) only on the basis of his General story and the final conclusion for him, means to deprive yourself of the joy of going through the path of research on this topic yourself. If I unconditionally believed what You said, for example, in fact "all committed suicide in Nov 44 prior NKVD arrival to the base as part of an inquiry into Tokarev's death", then I would deprive myself of the pleasure of even knowing their names and fates, and it would not be known to all participants who read this topic.

all awards and fate of Markin N.A. https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/kld-card_vmf3251804
all awards and fate of Goncharov V.T. https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/kld-card_vmf1703491
Of course, I cannot rule out that this is the same plane, but without an accurate understanding of the modification and number of General Tokarev's plane, it is very difficult to draw a final conclusion.

The inscription "For Stalin" could theoretically also be on the pilot's plane, which was usually navigated by NA Markin. Until September 1942, he served in the 4th squadron of the 2nd MTAP, and September 1941 there was one aircraft in the 2nd MTAP with such an inscription - this is the DB-3F of the flight commander, Lieutenant P.S. Skatova (died on this plane 09/17/1941)

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

There's no point in repeating , I did not ask you to believe
nor to agree with me , likewise you can't convince me u're
familar with this thread or other threads I've started in the past
on which you elected to join trying to prove the otherwise.

Hence copy / paste of info from Russian forums into here is
fine for public and your purpose not however as contribution
to the updates sought on my thread .

Take Care
Alex K

PS : You can Pvt me in Russian if this still not clear

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Hi,

it is same plane?

Thank

Faenor

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Seems to be the case ! well done mate ! With this occassion
on attachment Tokarev HSSU at Moscow captured Axis
equipment display in summer 1943. For those who
continue to follow my post , a group photo taken at Gelendjik
naval air field along with his Navigator ( first from right ) and
Schandura ( from left )

Cheers
Alex K

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

I know only one photo from the crash site of General Tokarev from the museum in Evpatoria. You can see that the right side of the plane is burned and the antenna is visible, and the tail is broken. In the memoirs of the navigator Khokhlov, it is also indicated that the right side and wing of the aircraft burned down.

In the above photos, the plane is damaged on the left side and the antenna on top is broken.
in the documents of the germans, it is said that the plane fell east of yevpatoria, but in fact the crash site is west of the city.
It looks like right-left and east-west is a very typical mistake in this story.

in addition, Tokarev's plane was shot down at 15.10 (Berlin time) or after 17.00 (Moscow time) - not 12.30 what called in first post.

Re: A-20 "Za Stalina " loss 30.1.1944 Evpatoria
 

Pse tell me something I don't know rather
copy /paste info from other Russian Forums
and focus on my typing error.

Translation from German report for you :

The attack started at 15:10 hrs local time ( my typing error ) from the
Westerly side by an SB-2 escorted by an IL-2 ( the report misidentified
the A-20) The torpedo missed the target by 30 meter

Badly hit the damaged a/c made a belly landing north of the salt lake ,
east of Evpatoria , the left wing, fuselage and rudder seriously damaged .
Second German report incorrectly citing the belly landing in water .

Third German report of Kriegsmarine Aufkl.Dienst and later on this of the
Abwehr are the correct event versions based on whch I started the thread .


PS:

The photo from Evpatoria or Sevastopol is the same a/c possibly at a later
date ,therefore with all due respect all what you posted in the past and now does not
make you in my eyes a Russian aviation and naval historian ,but someone
who is keen to learn about history from what other say , period !