Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Good afternoon,

From Manfred Jurleit, Strahljäger Me 262 Die Technikgeschichte, (1992), pp. 176-177:

"...Ende Februar 1945 wurde die 2. Me 262 V-2 (V-056) nach Oberpfaffenhofen zum Industriekommando 'Charlotte' überführt und dort mit dem FuG 'Neuling' IFF zusätzlich ausgerüstet. Hier wurde auch Eine Me 262 B-1a/U-1 erprobt. Sie ging allerdings im März 1945 verloren. Während eines Nachtfluges mit Hauptmann Sorge am Steuerknüppel fand dieser sein Funkfeuer nicht, obwohl die Kraftstoffanzeige bereits aufleuchtete. Sorge geriet in Panik und verließ die Maschine am Schirm."

From Manfred Jurleit, Strahljäger Me 262 Im Einsatz, (1995), p. 172:

"110307 W 10./NJG 11 Rote 4 Me 262 B-1a/U1, mit MK 108 und zusätzl. 2 x MG 151/20 Schrage Musik. Absturz März 1945."

Is anything more known about this(these) loss(losses) and the "Hauptmann Sorge"?

Thank you,

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi Jim,

This a very interesting subject. It is known, that B&V Wenzendorf converted a total of 3 B-1a -airframes and DLH Staaken a total of 5 B-1a -airframes into B-1a/U1s. As to my best understanding, these completed Me262B-1a/U1 -airframes were as follows:

Code: - Red 8 (second)
W.Nr. - 110305
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Still in Museum at Johannesburg
Ferried to NJG 11: - 31.3.1945 (?)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 7 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 9 (some sources claim Red 6, but Altner's flugbuch entries leave no other a/c to be Red 9)
W.Nr. - 110306
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos
Ferried to NJG 11: - 24-26.3.1945 (not sure which of the days)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 27 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 4
W.Nr. - 110307
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Jurleit -book
Ferried to NJG 11: - 3.1945 (?)
Last confirmed date: - lost 3.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - none
Delivery date not known.

Code: - Red 11
W.Nr. - 110378
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - loss list of flugplatz Lubeck-Blankensee, Me262 Production Log
Ferried to NJG 11: - 7.4.1945
Last confirmed date: - 13.4.1945 (100% destroyed in a bombing raid, by collapsed hangar)
Known flights in flughbucher: - the ferry flight between Staaken and Lubeck
All clear.

Code: - Red 10
W.Nr. - 110635
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos, Me262 Production Log,
Ferried to NJG 11: - 30.3.1945
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 2 at DLH Staaken Werk
All clear.

Code: - Red 12 (first)
W.Nr. - 110636
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - flugbuch of Herbert Altner
Ferried to NJG 11: - 26.3.1945
Last confirmed date: - 27.3.1945 (Altner pulled the throttles down too fast and both engines flamed out. Plane stalled and crashed, radar/radio-operator was killed after hitting the vertical tail.)
Known flights in flughbucher: - 2 at DLH Staaken Werk + 21 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 08 (first?)
W.Nr. - 110979
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: test flights on 19.3, 23.3. and 24.3.1945
Ferried to NJG 11: - 26.3.1945 Altner and Lommatsch flew a Si204 into Staaken to ferry this a/c to Burg.
Last confirmed date: - 31.3.1945 (lost after this date)
Known flights in flughbucher: - 5 at DLH Staaken Werk
Lost before delivery to NJG11.

Code: - Red 12 (second)
W.Nr. - 111980
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: Post-War Photos, Me262 Production Log, flugbuch of Herbert Altner
Ferried to NJG 11: - 15.4.1945
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 1 by Welter + 2 by Altner
All clear.

All corrections and additions are most welcome!

Best Regards,
Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hello Juha,

First, as far as I know, Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nrs. 110305, 110306, 110635 and 111980 were captured by the British at Schleswig-Jägel on 6 May 1945.

Second, I too noticed Altner's entry of "12" in his flugbuch for the aircraft lost on 27 March 1945. This entry can be found in the excerpt page in Andeas Zapf, Mosquitos über Berlin ..., (2018), p. 577. I should mention that I have reservations about this flugbuch as the entries for his flights seem to have been added later from memory without times and the kennzeichen even later. Mr. Zapf, a conscientious researcher, on pp. 510-511 ascribes WNr. 110636 as the loss that day without mentioning a kennzeichen.

best regards,

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Schrage Musik on a Me 262? Any idea where they found room for that?
best regards,
Richard

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Juha,
Just to confirm, are you saying that the assertion by Jurleit that 110307 was a B-1a/U1 is incorrect?
Andy

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi all,

Andy: not sure of 110307, need to check if I find it from NJG 11 one-seaters list. However, interesting is, that the W.Nr. is just after 110305 and 110306, which both are known B-1a/U1 -conversions.

Jim: sorry for the capture -location, my bad. It came from the loss location of Red 11 as a copy. You are absolutely right here. I will amend my original post.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi Richard,

I found this in reference to the proposed standard Me 262 B-2a Night Fighter in Smith & Creek, Me 262 Volume Three, (2000), p. 499:

"... A more practical proposal was to reduce the forward-firing MK 108s to two (with 160 rounds) and mount an upward firing MK 108 on either side of the radar operator in a Schräge Musik installation."

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi all,

Yes, the 110307 was also a two-seater. This a/c was the third one converted by B&V. All the three B&V conversions had the 2x MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installation.

I will amend my initial posting again.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi, I'm a bit confused. Is this photo of "306" W.Nr.110306?
I don't see a Red 9 or Schräge Musik.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e06c4827_h.jpg

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi,

Yes, this is 110306.

As for the code number, some sources state "Red 06", some sources state "Red 09". I don't recall seeing a definite photo to prove either way. (As for the sources, for eaxmple; Phil Butler's "War Prizes" states "Red 06", while Classic's four volume Me 262 series states "Red 09".) Can anyone prove one of these as solid fact?

As for the dual MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installation Dan O'Connell's "The Me 262 Production Log" indicates the 110307 as having the "experimental" MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installed and 110306 having "a dual MG151/20 -installed." The latter might also refer to the forward firing arrangement, or the obligue guns were later removed. Cannot confirm this either.

I most interested in trying to build a picture of all the B-1/U1s intended to be operated by 10./NJG 11. And as I wrote earlier, all additions and corrections are most welcome.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

The forward firing 20mm makes sense. thx
http://www.indianamilitary.org/Freem...,%20p.%204.jpg


Are there any photos showing an Me 262 with Schrage Musik?

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Is the W.Nr. list in the last paragraph of this Kagero publication accurate?


http://kagero.pl/index.php?option=co...8&limitstart=2

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi edwest2,

The W.Nr. -listing in your link is accurate, but misses 2 airframes. The numbers 110636, 110797, both known B-1a/U1s.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Thank you Juha.


Ed

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Juha,
Sorry, I'm being think. Do you mean 110797 (not previously mentioned in this thread), or 110979 as in the list on Page 1?
Andy

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi Juha,

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=716

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=717

I'm sorry to throw a spanner into the works.

Some comments on the above examples of the same photo:
1. The werknummer is not discernable.
2. The "Rote 11" is small, in the same position and size as Rote 8.
3. It has three white numerals on the nose, in the same position as Rote 8, but smaller. These numerals may perhaps be 761, but are definitely not 378.
4. It has the later-style taillight, as does 305 and 306, but unlike the early-style of 110635.

General comments:

The werknummernblock 110361 to 110385 were completed between 20 September and 15 October 1944 according to Ordelheide's flugbuch. At this time the early-style taillight was still being applied as seen in a photo of 110371.

I have to conclude either

A) The three numerals on the noses of the B-1a/U1s were not werknummern,

or

B) Rote 11 was not 110378

or

C) There were two Rote 11s.

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

I don't know the origin of the photos above, but my very first thought was that they looked like a photo shopped diorama/model. I'm not saying that they are, but they almost look too perfect with all of the equipment around, perfect manicured grass, etc..

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Revi16,
I have the same "gut feeling" regarding the above photo.
Steve Sheflin

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Revi and Steve,

Thank you, I fell for it! Now sadder and wiser.

Juha, my apologies. Leave your list as it is.

mea culpa,

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi Andy,

Good catch, that's a clear typo. Meant to say 110979.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

I tend to agree with Revi and Steve. The model and diorama of "Rote 11" are however very nicely done.

The tiny detail that is revealing is the code number size:
- the three a/c completed at B&V Wenzendorf had rather small red numerals: 4, 8 and 9 (or 6)
- the four-to-five a/c completed at DLH Staaken had large red numerals: 10, 12 and thus, 11 would have been highly likely "large" too

Thanks for all the contributions.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi all,

I made one last amendment to my initial listing; I went through all the flugbuch pages I have, and wrote a new note about the amount of flights recorded for each of the airframes. This leaves only the code of 110979 somewhat uncertain. All the rest of the information should be now a match.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Jim,

Regarding the images in your post #16, if memory serves these models were created by master modeller Gü52nter Sengfelder. I am trying to remember where this image was published in the past.

Best,

David

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

David,

Thank you. He is indeed a master. The models and diorama are superb. Apart from Juha's remarks, I now note that the base of the rear aerial does not quite match those of the real aircraft.

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Large "10" https://www.ebay.de/itm/2-WK-Foto-Lu...UAAOSwhC9f0n9W

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi all,

One final note on this thread. Santa brought me (a bit early) Andreas Zapf's paperback booklet (printed in december 2019) titled: "The Jet Night Fighters - Kurt Welter & the Story of the Messerschmitt Me 262 Night Fighters". There are some new(?) unpublished photos showing the captured Me262B-1a/U1s. These photos include a fairly sharp close-up image of 110306, showing the code as "Red 9".

Merry Christmas!
Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

I have some questions regarding 110306.

Code: - Red 9 (some sources claim Red 6, but Altner's flugbuch entries leave no other a/c to be Red 9)
W.Nr. - 110306
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos
Ferried to NJG 11: - 24-26.3.1945 (not sure which of the days)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 27 by Altner
All clear.

Is 110306/FE-610/T-2-610 all one and the same aircraft?
http://indianamilitary.org/FreemanAA...e262B/0610.htm

110305 (Red 8), 110306 (Red 9), 111980 (Red12), all appear to have four 30mm cannons installed when captured.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5db3bc15_h.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...94dff8a0_h.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e8c825eb_h.jpg

FE-610 with two 20mm cannons installed in the USA.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...24241201_h.jpg

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=718

110306 as "Ole' Fruit Cake". Note that the long barrels of the MG 151/20 cannon were added after it was captured by the British.

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=719

This is a copy of the picture found on p. 90 of Andreas Zapf's The Jet Night Fighters ..., (2019) caption reads:
"A rare photo of "Rote 9", WNr. [110 306] already in US Markings but still showing traces of the original marking below the windscreen. (Archive Gordon Permann)

Below is a picture of the nose of [110305] showing the size and position of "Rote 8".

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=720

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Are you saying the aircraft had 20mm cannons with the barrels removed when captured and the British just re-installed the barrels or that the 30mm cannons were removed and 20mm cannons installed?



I'll ask again from Post #11, "Are there any photos showing an Me 262 with Schräge Musik", either MK 108 or MG151/20?

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi Revi,

Both Jurleit (p. 172) and O'Connell (p. 70) say it was armed with two MG 151/20s. From the photos of '306' in German markings the extended gun barrels of MG 151s (as seen in photos of He 162s) are not present. I can only conclude that the 30 mm MK 108s were removed and the long barrels added after the British arrived.

To date I have never seen a photo of a Me 262 with the Schrage Musik installation.

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

I havn't either Jim.

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi

So far, I am not aware of any evidence of a construction of this type in the Me 262. Drawings, sample construction, airplane photos, test reports, ... nothing points to this weapon in a Me 262..- so far -.

The fuselage of the Me 262 has a maximum cross-section of 1.68 m in height (area in the middle of the pilots cab). There were fueltanks in front of the pilot. There were fueltanks behind and below the observer / radio operator.
The installation of a MG 151/20 in front of the Spant 7190 should not be possible without further changes to the built-in components in the night fighter. Removing the rear fueltanks of the night fighter has a negative effect on flight time. Converting the fueltanks to the rear would change the center of gravity and negative for the frame stability.
If the MG 151/20 (176 cm) were installed after the Spant 7190, 30% or more of this weapon would be located outside the hull.


Regards
Matthias

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Hi all,

Here's a small "Ident-collage" made out of the five Me262B-1a/U1s as found after the war. Pardon my interpretation of the "Red 11" - sharp-eyed viewers noticed the photo actually shows one of the Me262B-1a -airframes destroyed under a collapsed hangar at B&V Wenzendorf, while under conversion work. Just my guessing how the real "Red 11" might have looked like at Lubeck-Blankensee.

BR, Juha

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Nice collage.

I still don't see the point as to why the Germans, British or whomever would go to the trouble of swapping out 30mm cannons to install 20mm cannons after surrender.

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

Neither do I, Revi. But the photographic evidence shows that these long "barrels" were not there at the surrender:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/albumphp?.albumid=73&pictureid=721

This is "306" beside "165" in the original line-up. It is not "305" which was in a different line-up at the surrender:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=722

Juha, I have never seen the photo at Wenzendorf. Thank you. I note that three out of the four photographed Me 262 B-1a/U1s have dark, day fighter upper wing camo.

Jim

Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945
 

In my opinion, the MG 151/20 was dismantled (or its barrel) when handed over. The British or rather captured German mechanics later installed it. Replacement of MK 108 with MG 151/20 was not technically possible at the airport, they would have to do it in the factory. These weapons were not compatible (mounting, wiring, etc.)