Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello!
During my work on the end of the war in 1945 in my homeland (Dötlingen/Niedersachsen) I came across a plane crash of an Allied plane near Birkenbusch/Dötlingen (about 40 km southwest of Bremen) in April 1945.
The aircraft was a single-seat English fighter aircraft. The exact date was April 4, 1945. The pilot was buried at the crash site and later reburied. A memorial stone was set up at the crash site.
Can anyone help?

Thank you very much
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Perhaps a possibility would be F/O PETER ASHFORTH HALLIWELL (163147), a new pilot in 274 squadron. He was flying Tempest V NV660 and was lost in the area of "Bremen" on April 4, 1945. That day the squadron flew two armed recce's in what they called the "Northern Area". They were attacking trains and during one attack Halliwell flew so low he struck a locomotive and supposedly knocked it off the tracks. His plane disintegrated. That description of the crash might help rule him "in or out" as a possibility.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...H%20HALLIWELL/

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...orth-halliwell

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

The “Birkenbusch” forest is right next to the Bremen-Osnabrück railway line.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Is there anything else I can learn about the pilot and the crash?

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Halliwell took off at 13:15 along with Frederick Wallace Mossing. Mossing returned at 15:10, so the crash occurred in the early afternoon.

(Mossing was killed during a training flight on 12 May, 1945.)

You mentioned a memorial stone at the crash site. What does it say? Do you have a picture?

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

You could ask in the German speaking "Forum der Wehrmacht"
www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de
There are some specialists activ in the forum with some good knowledge about airplane crashes on German territory.
Best regards
Rolf

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Two residents told me that there was a stone there. I'm still looking for the exact spot (in the forest).

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

I wonder if the stone was placed closer to the tracks possibly where the locomotive crashed. There is a small "wooded" area on both sides of the track at this location:

52 57 10.9 North, 08 26 08.7 East

52.953014349487255 North, 8.435752763880485 East

https://www.google.com/maps/place/52...43!4d8.4357528


Halliwell had joined the squadron in late March flying his first mission on March 22.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

The Birkenbusch forest is still very large today (white border). In 1945 it was even bigger (yellow border). If the stone was in the area of the yellow border, it could have been disposed of later. That's why I turned to the newspaper. Maybe there is a request in the newspaper for help.



Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

I should have looked more carefully at the link I gave earlier:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...H%20HALLIWELL/

in particular at the 2 items listed under “Concentration” toward the bottom of the page (scroll down).

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi.../#&gid=2&pid=2

They are two copies of the same thing but the last column of the sheet indicates the previous location of gave. This gives the location where the body of Halliwell was found. Note it says:

“Isolated grave near BRETTORF, GSGS 4416 1/100.000, Sht M 3, MR 472854. “

At the top of the sheet it gives the current location of the grave (in Rheinberg Cemetery) as:
MR A 185264.

The co-ordinates they are giving are based on a grid system explained on this website:
http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php
The locations are in the “Nord de Guerre Zone Grid”. A little confusion on the way they are giving the leading letters, but Rheinberg Cemetery is at rA185264 and the original grave location near Brettorf is at rW472854. Using the translator (which gives locations within 150 to 1000 meters of actual location) we get a location of 52.96261N, 8.43891E (which is right in the middle of a field).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/52...6261!4d8.43891


If we can locate a copy of the actual map they were using (GSGS 4416 1/100.000, Sht M 3) we might do a little better on the location on the original grave.

Here might be a map to use: http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/am...-bremen-m3.jpg

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Looking at the GSGS M3 map, it is possible to work out a rough "correction" factor for where the echodelta site locates co-ordinates vs where the same point seems to be on the actual map.
A point we can identify on the M3 map is where the Brettorfer Str / Uhlhorner Str crosses the railroad track (Bahnweg). On the M3 map the co-ordinates appear to be very close to rW478860. If we put those coordinates into the echodelta locator for the Nord de Guerre Grid it translates to the co-ordinates: 52.96795N, 8.4491E.
Looking a Google maps that point (see orange marker) appears to be about 200 meters NE of the actual location of the intersection:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/52...8.4491!5m1!1e4

A second point we can locate on the M3 map is at co-ordinates rW466851. There is a road that looks like the letter “L” rotated about 120 degrees clockwise and the coordinates are where the short leg of the “L” meets the long edge. If we again put that point in the echodelta translator, we get a location about 200 meters NE of the actual location.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/52....42995!5m1!1e4

So it would appear that the echodelta locator is shifting locations about 200 meters to the NE of their “actual” locations for this part of the M3 map. Thus the grave location rW472854, that we located using the echodelta locator has probably also been shifted about 200 meters NE of its actual location.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/52...6261!4d8.43891

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

In the next few days there will be a report in the “Nordwest-Zeitung” with a request for support. I hope that I will then find out the exact coordinates of the grave.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

With the help of the newspaper and some residents of Brettorf, the crash site (see photo) could be found (Green Circle).
The approach to the railway line took place via the courtyard (blue circle).
During the attack, the aircraft got caught in a phone line and crashed. Residents of the courtyards saw the crash (blue and red circles).
A resident then buried Halliwell right next to the crash site under a beech tree (see also photo). There was no tombstone.
The plane was still there for a very long time. It was not recovered by the British. Children have found the remains of the aircraft for many years. A local resident also gave me the two parts seen in the photo today.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Interesting. Looks like the part may possibly be part of a foot pedal for the rudder control.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello!
Is the name of the Tempest V "NV660" the number of the machine or a serial number?
Regards,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

The plane was a Hawker Tempest. The Version or Mark number was "V" (for five). NV660 was the serial number.

Some background on the Tempest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker...t#Tempest_Mk.V

Note there is a photo of NV696 on the wikipedia page (note serial number on tail).

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...otype_ExCC.jpg

Wikipedia even has a colorized version: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...t_Nov_1944.jpg

I would guess Halliwell's plane would look the same or at least certainly very similar. What is missing are the squadron code letters and the individual plane letter.

You can see examples of those this next photo or in the video on the Tempest. The "SA" were the code letters for 486 squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._48...Camps_1944.jpg

I think 274 squadron was using "JJ". See for example, this: http://www.luftwaffeinprofile.se/Tem...0%20D%204.html

A video on the Tempest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Sd8h3XXvU

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Maybe someone has a photo of Halliwell or the Tempest NV660?
Thank you so much!

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

We probably need to find some Halliwell relatives to possibly locate a photo. I will see if I can get any leads on his family. (I think I know his parent's names... so that is a start.)

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello,
Due to the call in the newspaper, a contemporary witness reported that on July 10, 1943, another plane crashed in the Birkenbusch area. It was a bomber plane that was shot down by an anti-aircraft gun. Can someone say something about this?
Greeting,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Regarding the bomber on July 10, 1943, if you are sure about the date it would be a RAF bomber. The AAF only had a few missions into France on that date. See July 10, 1943 on this link: http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii...ml/Jul.43.html

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

In the parish chronicle as of July 10, 1943. However, I found another document where July 11, 1943 is noted. Six soldiers died in the crash and were buried in Vechta. They were later reburied.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello dear forum members,

I can no longer say why the congregation gave a wrong date shortly after the war. However, with the help of a homeland explorer, the correct date is now known:

July 28, 1943.

It is said to have been a Lancaster EE142 (12th Sqn).

Regards,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213652

The link gives the crash location as the road from Wildeshausen to Oldenburg, 1 km north of Dötlingen.


http://www.aircrewremembered.com/All...dents/?q=EE142

Six of the crew were first buried at Vechta and one (Sgt Percival John Bartlett (1299351)) was a POW.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello,
Sergeant P John BARTLETT (1299351) survived the crash of the Lancaster. He was sent to the Muhlberg prisoner of war camp on the Elbe. According to information from COMMONWEALTH WAR GRAVES, he survived the war. Is it known whether he wrote down his experiences about this crash?

Best regards and have a nice weekend,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Doesn't appear to have been a member of the RAF Ex POW Association

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello,
Are there any other options?

Greeting
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello,
could anyone find any relatives of Peter Ashforth Halliwell's in Canada or find a photo?

Regards,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Karsten,

Peter was born in 1924 in Newton Abbot, Devon England. Peter Halliwell's father was Frederick Bertram Halliwell, 1883 - 1931. Frederick died in Newton Abbot.
Peter's mother was Mabel "(May") Gertrude Hendley Skevington Halliwell, 1887 - 1972. She was born in Nottingham and died in Rosedene, Rife Way, Felpham, Sussex England.

I "believe" Peter had a sister, Barbara M Halliwell, born in 1921, and she married John H Wilsher in Newton Abbot in 1946. I "believe" Barbara and John had a daughter Jill Diane whose married name is De Boer. I am trying to get in contact Jill, but no luck so far. Maybe someone in England would have better luck (or at least better resources).

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hi there,
Thank you for the informations. I have already written to his hometown and I'm waiting for an answer.
Are there aerial photographs for the periods June 28, 1943 and April 4, 1945 that show the crash site?


Many Greetings,
Karsten

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hello,
does anyone know Halliwell's date of birth?

All the best,
Karsten

Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hello everyone!
I am working on the crash of a Lancaster EE142 on July 28, 1943 in my hometown Dötlingen.
I am looking for pictures of this aircraft and the crew, crash reports (German and English). I'm also trying to find out what happened to the only survivor of the crash after being captured.
His name was Sgt. P. John Bartlett (1299351).
Did the plane have a name too?

Many greetings and a happy new year,
Karsten

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

I suspect you have found this but it says Percival John Bartlett (1299351) was a POW at Stalag 4B where he had POW Number 222475.

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...=&srnum=222475

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hello Karsten, FYI, here are the claims details for this Lancaster:

Ofw. Wilhelm Schmale: 7 3./NJG3 Lancaster Dötlingen, 5 km N. Wildeshausen (Himmelbett): 500 m 01.25 12 Sqn Lancaster EE142. Note: coned by 1., 3. & 4./Flakscheinw. Abt. 268, also claimed by Flak of 1.-4./schw. Flak Abt. 163, 3./lei. Flak Abt. 844 and lei. Hei. Flak Bttr. 38/XI (‘Lancaster on road Wildeshausen-Oldenburg, 1 km N. Dötlingen 01.26 hrs’), Flak claim confirmed by OKL on 12.9.1944, victory Ofw. Schmale confirmed on 21.12.1944

Do you know if there are any wartime photos of the crash/wreckage?

Cheers, Theo

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hallo,
I don't know any photos of the crash site, but to be on the safe side I will ask the community again.
Did the Lancaster have a name and are there photos of the aircraft and / or its crew?

Regards,
Karsten

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Karsten,

Regarding my attempt to contact a relative of PETER ASHFORTH HALLIWELL, I have just gotten a reply from a person at Oxford University and they are in the process of getting in contact with a woman who I "believe" is Halliwell's niece. It may take a little more time. I'll keep you posted.

UPDATE

We have made contact with the niece of Peter Halliwell but unfortunately she is unable to help. She does not know anything about him. He died before she was born and she doesn't think there is anyone else in her family or circle who would know anything either.

Re: Plane Crash Dötlingen April 4, 1945
 

Hi,I have NV660 like JJoR in my files - with notice P.H. Clostermann and his claims from 14.3.1945

Faenor

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hi Faenor,
can you send me the files?

Greeting,
Karsten

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hi,it is my excel with list of shot downed/crashed planes - and supporting docs are in the files.
P.H. Clostermann file is on the disc, which is now out of me, but somebody have scans of this log book and maybe share it. Remember, it was downloaded from some French forum.
Faenor

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

Hi there,
many thanks for the answer.
Maybe someone here has the information!

I still have questions about the NV660 aircraft:
1. Did the aircraft have a name (nickname)?
2. When was it built?
3. What sort of missions did it fly?
4. When was Halliwell the pilot on this machine?

Thank you again
Karsten

Re: Crash Lancaster EE142 July 28, 1943
 

In response:


1. Only a few RAF bombers were personalised with names or nose art.
2. It was one of 247 built by Avro Manchester and delivered between March and June 1943.
3. If you go to the National Archive site, you can see the Operations Record Book for 12 Sqn and can work out from that the missions it flew. It could not have been on the squadron long as it was relatively new.


https://discovery.nationalarchives.g..._dt=SQ&_hb=tna



4. The Operations Record Book will tell you this also