A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Does anyone have any idea where the downed plane from
the movie might have been? It is helpful to watch
the movie and the earlier frames of the flight.
Maybe a few maps and descriptions from the attached link
will also be useful.
Stop time from film - 8:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyqub_YhRd8


------------------


II Corps in Italy 1945 ==> Polish II Corps

https://mikesresearch.com/2020/03/29/bologna-1945/

"...The Polish II Corps advanced north along the Via Emilia (Highway 9) corridor towards Castel San Pietro and Medicina. The attack was spearheaded by Task Force Rud or Rudforce (named after its commanding officer General Klemens Rudnicki). It was formed in the Spring of 1945 and consisted primarily of the 3rd Carpthian Rifle Brigade of the 3rd Carpthian Infantry Division and the 4th Wolyn Infantry Brigade of the 5th Kresowa Infantry Division. On the first day, the USAAF mistakenly bombed the Polish units (‘Friendly Fire’) which took heavy casualties, however the Poles achieved their first objective in capturing the heights above the river Senio. On April 10, the open ground between the river Senio and Santerno was broken through after a night attack using Crocodiles (probably C Squadron, 51st Royal Tank Regiment), to punch through a gap between the German 98. Infantrie-Division and the 26. Panzer -Division. The German units put up a tenacious defense and mounted counter attacks before the Poles finally dislodged them and captured Imola on April 14. Over the next few days, the Polish units gave chase through Sillaro, over the Medicina Canal and engaged the 4. Fallschirmjäger-Regiment which were forced to withdraw. In pursuit, the Poles crossed the heavily defended river Gaiano and engaged the rest of the 1. Fallschirmjäger-Division. The Polish attack was so successful that the German division was disintegrated. The 5th British Infantry Division swung further north and took the Ferrara-Bologna road which cut off the remaining German units escape route...."

List of PL-soldiers:
https://www.polishexilesofww2.org/ar...lish-2nd-corps

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Ummm..... no guesses yet. Just to start a discussion......

Could it be a RAF P-40 (Warhawk)????

Were any squadrons still flying them in 1945 in Italy, if that was when the movie was taken?

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

5 SAAF and 3 RAAF Sq used Kittyhawks in 1945 (Fighting Colours-Bowyer)

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Sorry that's not correct 5(SAAF) converted to Mustang III/IV towards the end of September 1944 and 3(RAAF) began converting at end of October 1944. I think the main operators of Kittyhawks on 239 Wing in 1945 were 450(RAAF) 'OK' codes and 250 'LD' codes.
Steve

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

I think the part of movie could be made by Polish rec. a/c like this one ? :

1) https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/22...f67d55bcbce43/
2) https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/224758/
3) https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/224760/

Description of the photos above from links:
Pilot of the "Kubuś" reconnaissance aircraft and an artillery observer at the same time.
Time: 1945-04
1) Topic title: The soldiers of the 2nd Polish Corps during the fights in the foreground of Bologna
2) Topic title: "Kubuś" reconnaissance plane used to coordinate artillery fire.

Map:
https://mikesresearchcom.files.wordp.../bologna-3.jpg

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

I'm seeing a Spitfire.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Revi16 I concur, and the port wing does not appear to show leading edge lump of
the undercarriage fairing.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Maybe here is answer (but emblem looks like Italian a/c) ?

http://aircrewremembered.com/editori...-zx-v-w800.jpg

(place: Sesto Imolese)

http://aircrewremembered.com/moffat-...EryyXC_vm4SOWc

or

"....permitted; ARTY R’s, Photo R’s and TAC R’s into the Po Valley and Naval Base at Spezia and others. In November our second in command, Sqn Ldr Peter Bezancenet, was shot down. We heard he had escaped, but was shot in the leg by an American soldier as he was coming back through the front line. I visited him in hospital in Rome later on and
he seemed quite cheerful. I completed my tour of ops on 11th January 1945 doing an ARTY R south of Bologna. ..."

Source (more) :
http://www.naval8-208-association.co...-45Page04.html

More photos with Italian emblem:
http://www.eaf51.org/Photo_03_51_ICAF_Spit.htm

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Is a bigger capture, adjusted for shadows and highlights any help?

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Now all we need is the picture enhancement logiciel used by CSI Las Vegas... ;)

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Could be a French Spitfire, the cocarde proportions were different to the RAF; there were 4 Spitfire units on Corsica but sometimes operated over Italy. These were "French" not "Free French" ( GC I/3, I/7, II/7, 2/33). Mostly Mk.Vs.
Nick

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

In 1945, there were no more French Spitfires in Corsica, they had moved to NE France. French air units flying over Italy were now based in SE France and were using mainly P-39s, and also P-47s. Most losses were in France but three French P-39s were lost over Italy in 1945. Two pilots baled out and one crashed during an attack on a convoy. No forced-landing. Also the Polish corps was on the east side of the front, far away from the area where French airmen flew during the period.

By the way, according to the book "Pilotes français sur l'Italie", all losses of French Spitfires were either in the sea or in Corsica.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

I am not "totally" convinced it is a Spitfire.

Here are some 3D views of Planes. You can grab the slider at the bottom and move the plane around.
You can get it to roughly the same angle of the photo, (but not at the same altitude above the plane, unfortunately.)

Spitfire:
https://hum3d.com/360-view/?id=160763

P-40:
https://hum3d.com/360-view/?id=203926

Some observations to make. The position of the cockpit and where it starts in relation to the wing. Where the pilot’s head would be in relation to the wing, e.g. in the center of the wing, back half of wing, etc.
How “curved” or straight the leading edges of the wings appear. How curved or straight the trailing edges appear.

The distance from the nose to the start of the wing on the P-40 is roughly half the distance from the back of the wing to the tail. (Two noses equal the tail ;-)

On the Spitfire the tail distance is roughly 3 times the nose distance.

The photo seems to me to be closer to the P-40 measurements than to the Spitfire.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Look at the wing tips. Also the fuselage was extended on the later P-40's placing the rudder aft of the elevators (as in the a/c on the left). An early short fuselage P-40 in Italy in 45 seems unlikely.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

For me main wings (on the end) looks like from Spitfire but tail from P-40 , difficult to say 100% which one is correct ;)

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Like many other members of this board, my humble opinion is that of a Spitfire too...There were several units doing REC-TAC with Mark IX...

A.

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

So what Spitfire squadrons would be possible candidates? 601, 417, 241, 145, 92?

Any others?

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

Rolland. Quite a few, these as of July 1945 in Italy.


92,145,241,601, 417RCAF, 208(TR).
318(Polish), 87, 185, 43, 72, 93, 111.
249, 73, 351(Yugoslav), 253 ( all Balkan AF).
237(Rhodesian), 225 (TR).
PR...682, 680.
SAAF....1,2,3,4,7, 40(FR).

also 2 Greek Sqns. in Greece (335,336).( 417 was disbanded 1 July , 351 to Yugoslav control 15 June).



Nick

Re: A/c - Somewhere in Italy 1945
 

PR photos were often taken with film sensitive to the infrared, so that red on them might stand out in ways not expected in most of the photos we see. Remember that by 1945 all RAF wing roundels should have been changed to r/w/b: perhaps not always in the correct proportions. Also white does sometimes "flood" such photos making roundels appear odd in proportion. Perhaps one or a mixture of these three reasons is responsible for the odd appearance of this picture.

Looks very much like a Spitfire to me.