46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Apparently 18 of their Hurricanes arrived in Norway during late May 1940. I have their ORB and am aware of the 10 lost in HMS 'Glorious' plus a few others lost in action or accidents.
However were any of the remaining Hurricanes shipped back to the UK in cargo vessels ? Looking at the serials for the 18 sent to Norway it seems that four served in the UK and elsewhere after June 1940 (L1798, L1814, L1892 & P2652), but what I need to know is are there any references in official documents or publications to any Hurricanes being shipped back to the UK.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

I have been looking at this again and can add the following. However my original question still stands, about finding some proof that 4 of the 18 Hurricanes used by 46 Squadron in Norway were shipped back to the UK and how this was done.

15 of the 18 Hurricanes were flown multiple times in Norway according to the 46 Sqn. F.541. Of the others L1892 was not recorded once. L1798 flew once (May 28th), as did L1814 (May 27th).
'P2652' poses some problems. Four of the Hurricanes were in the N and P-serial range but sometimes both letters are used for the same aircraft, 'P2652' being a case in point.
On May 26th P2652 is shown being flown off HMS 'Glorious'. On May 27th and 28th it is recorded flying five times but always as N2652. It appears only once more, on June 2nd as 'P2652'. I cannot prove it but it is possible this is a typo for P2632 which was also being flown in Norway by 46 Squadron.

However I am more or less certain now that 'P2652' should be N2652.
The Form 78 Aircraft History Card for N2652 shows it with 46 Squadron since 5-4-1940, the next entry is to 4 M.U. with Category B damage on 28-6-1940. Finally to 229 Squadron in September 1940 and lost with them on the 30th of that month.
On the other hand the F.78 for P2652 shows it with various Maintenance Units in 1940 until sent to the Middle East in late July 1940. Specifically it was Taken on Charge by 20 M.U. on 23-5-1940 when it was supposed to have been on board HMS 'Glorious' according to the 46 Sqn. ORB. I have tracked down P2652 in the Middle East serving with 274 Squadron from September to December 1940 at least (from their online ORB). It was finally lost on 14-4-1941 flying with 73 Squadron (F/Lt. JD Smith) in Tobruk (AIR 81/5847). There is much variation in the serial for that loss and I am not going into that maze today !

The other three Hurricane histories can be summarized as follows.
L1798. The F.78 for this aircraft shows there is a gap between it going to 4 M.U.(for repair ?) on 19-3-1940 and to 27 M.U. on 10-7-1940. It was flown by several OTUs in 1940 and 1941.
L1814. The first entry on its F.78 is 46 Sqn. but with no date. Next it goes to 1 C.R.U. on 29-6-1940, later to an OTU, probably flying with them into 1941.
L1892. After 46 Sqn. it too goes to 1 C.R.U. (undated), then to 5 M.U. on 29-7-1940 and 111 Sqn. on 20-8-1940.

Of particular interest here is an entry in the 46 Sqn. F.541 for 26 May 1940 when it records they had two unidentified Hurricanes damaged out of ten attempting to land at a strip near Skanland. These are almost certainly two out of L1798, L1814 and L1892.
If I am correct about the June 2nd entry for 'P2652' being P2632 in reality, then it is clear none of the four Hurricanes flew later than May 28th thus making it easier to accept there was enough time for these four to be shipped back to the UK.
Based on their histories as outlined above it is not in question that they arrived back in the UK but I would like to see some evidence about their shipment back. To 'connect the dots' so to speak.

Hope someone can help.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

I have an old note saying that N2652 went u/s on 2nd June and was returned to UK.

John Engelsted

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Thanks John,

Any mention of which ship it might have been returned on ?

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Sorry, no other info.

John Engelsted

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Thanks again John.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hi. This has been a problem for some time. Had a long e-mail exchange with Andrew Thomas about these Hurricanes, and a friend of him at the Air Historical Branch suggested that "P2652" was a typo for 2352 which went to Norway. This must then be N2352. Andrew sent me a copy of P2652 movement card which confirm what you write. It never was with 46 Squadron. At least two Hurricanes were damaged while landing at Skaanland. One ended up on its back and was returned to Britain. The pilots seat was left behind and was in the safe keeping with an old friend of mine. If "P2652" was in fact N2352/PO-T, this aircraft was left behind together with N2543/PO-K and L1812(code not known).


Bengt

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

I can't see how N2352 was left in Norway. It served with 605 Sqn, 302 Sqn, 55 OTU before going to the Navy in July 1941 and served until being damaged beyond repair in January 1943

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Isn't confusion with P/N 2652 not N2352 ?

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Bengt,

It is N2652, not N2352.
N2352 had been with 605 Sqn. until 25 April 1940 when it had been damaged in a mid-air collision. The F.78 shows it was next Taken On Charge by 13 M.U. for repair on 2 May 1940 and later by 4 M.U. (De Havilland) on 25 May 1940.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Sorry, I'm still confused - not difficult!
Bengt's last sentence says:
Later messages correct the serial to N2652.
But N2652 wasn't left in Norway either. It was lost with 229 Sqn over the UK on 30 September 1940.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hello,
Have you looked at my old posts about the CFF a/c and Hurricanes left behind ? May be some help.
In the mean time I looked through AB's L,N and P serials for 46 Sqn.
Here are those a/c.

L1750 - went to 151 Sqn, later became 2637M.
L1791 - went to 7 OTU.
L1792 - crashed in UK 29/3/39.
L1793 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1794 - S/d 29/5/40, Narvik.
L1795 - landing acc UK, 24/2/39, became 1388M.
L1796 - went to 85 Sqn, so 3/1/45.
L1797 - landing acc UK, 19/6/39, DBR.
L1801 - Crash UK 18/4/40.
L1802 - went to 229 Sqn, NFT 17/5/40.
L1803 - went to 229 Sqn.
L1804 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1805 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1806 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1807 - went to 312 Sqn, converted to DG628.
L1813 - went to 43 Sqn.
L1814 - "PO-C" - went to 6 OTU.
L1815 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1816 - S/d Narvik, 29/5/40.
L1817 - went to 229 Sqn, lost in France 213 Sqn 17/5/40.
L1853 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1854 - went to 229 Sqn.
L1857 - Crashed UK 6/3/40.
L1892 - went to 111 Sqn.
L1988 - lost Norway 29/5/40.
L2071 - went to 229 Sqn.
L2083 - went to 6 OTU.

N2480 - S/d UK 15/10/40.
N2497 - crashed UK 4/12/40.
N2543 - "PO-K" Undercarriage collapsed , abandoned on evac 2/6/40.
N2599 - went to 55 OTU.
N2652 - "PO-T", went to 229 Sqn.

P2632 - lost Glorious 8/6/40.
P2633 - lost Glorious 8/6/40.
P2685 - force landing UK 24/7/40.
P2965 - crashed UK, 17/12/40.
P2968 - went to 9 FTS.
P2994 - went to RN 16/1/41.
P3024 - UK 3/9/40.
P3026 - went to 145 Sqn.
P3030 - went to 601 Sqn.
P3031 - went to 607 Sqn.
P3052 - UK 49/40.
P3053 - UK 8/9/40.
P3060 - went to 73 Sqn.
P3062 - crashed UK 13/1/41.
P3063 - crashed UK 3/9/40.
P3064 - Mia UK, 3/9/40.
P3066 - crashed UK 3/9/40.
P3067 - S/d UK 9/40.
P3094 - crashed UK 11/9/40.
P3097 - went to 121 Sqn.
P3114 - went to 229 Sqn.
P3201 - S/d UK 8/9/40.
P3309 - went to 121 Sqn.
P3429 - crashed UK 30/11/40.
P3525 - crashed UK 11/9/40.
P3533 - lost in France 5/40, ex CFF, to 145(?) to 501 Sqn (?).
P3597 - went to 247 Sqn.
P3706 - went to RN 28/12/41.
P3756 - went to 607 Sqn converted became DG612.
P3816 - S/d UK 18/9/40
P5209 - went to 317 Sqn.

Delivered from July 40
R2684 - went to 121 Sqn.
R4074 - S/d UK 22/10/40.
R4190 - crashed UK 22/2/41.

Hope this is of some use .

Alex

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Martin has '10 Lost In Glorious' Alex mentions '8' so

1) Martin's list match the 8 Alex has
2) What are the missing 2 ?

Thanks

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hello,
OK I found 10. HMS Glorious.
L1793; L1804; L1805; L1806; L1815; L1853; L1961; L1980; P2632; P2633.

Lost due to e/a in Norway
L1794; L1816; L1988; N2543.
So the other four ?

Noted in the ORB for July that were in the ORB for June were -
P2965; P3026; P3031; P3062; P3063; P3067; P3597.

Which leaves -
L1895; P2652; P3023.
Total of 24 a/c that if I counted correctly were noted in the June ORB.

In regard to L1798; L1814; L1892 and P2652. These were mentioned in the May ORB but do not think that they are in the June ORB, except P2652.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Arghh! What a mess!

There is a photo of PO-T laying on its belly, left at Bardufoss. It seems to have all metal wings. There is also a photo of the scrap heap after the Germans had round up all wrecks, showing the "T" in the code. So it was definitely left behind. The serial number is the big question then. AIR 2/7262 which is full of reports from the air component of the North West Expeditionary Force has three damaged Hurricanes being shipped back to Britain in SS Cotswold.



https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/...-Skaanland.jpg


Bengt

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Ok. Have gone through the ORB again armed with the new info from AIR 2/7262 that 3 aircraft were returned to Britain after being damaged. Two of them are clear: L1814 and L1892. The third seems to be N2652 which ended up with 229 Squadron and was lost in September 1940. Ten aircraft was flown from Bardufoss to Glorious on 7 and 8 June. Three were shot down in air combat (L1794, L1816 and L1988) which leave only two Hurricanes left behind at Bardufoss. Not three as I have assumed before! Those were PO-T and PO-K. One seems to be N2543 and the other L1812. Which is which becomes speculation, but PO-T seems to be the one with latest mods. All metal wings, the later type of wind shield with the armored glass on the inside and the photo showing it laying on its belly beside the runway (it suffered under carriage collapse while landing). L1812s fate is not mentioned in the ORB and must then be PO-K, which was left standing in the splinter box. If so, then L1812 is PO-K and N2543 is PO-T. Any thoughts?



There are several typos and errors in the ORB. No L1805 landed at Skaanland or Bardufoss whenn the squadron arrived in Norway, but it left Norway on 8 June:


https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/...Abbotsinch.jpg


https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/...o-Glorious.jpg


Bengt

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Thank you Bengt for these pages. Clears it up I think.

Only one oddity is Taken aboard on delivery was N2633.
BUT on leaving there is P2633.

Is this one and the same a/c ?
Or was this some typo error made at the time.

I note that on delivery
P2632 - S/L. CROSS
and
P2652 was F/O. MEE.
N2633 was P/O. McGREGOR.

And on evacuation
P2633 S/L. CROSS
and
P2632 F/O. MEE.

Could L1798 have been returned earlier ?

L1805 seems to have been lost on HMS Glorious, but was not (from the list) one of the eighteen ?

So were those that were S/d and wrecked in Norway replaced by other a/c ?
If so are their serial numbers known ?

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Bengt,

I posted the following last night but it disappeared or just did not go through properly.

Thank you very much for the extract from AIR 2/7262 which was new to me. The reference to the SS 'Cotswold' and the three Hurricanes being shipped back was the answer to my original question. If you have any other pages from the AIR 2/7262 document after May 29th could you please check if a fourth Hurricane was shipped back to the UK ?
Unfortunately I see now we are dealing with 19 serials, not 18. L1798/L1805 being the issue I think. The F.78 for L1798 has no mention of 46 Sqn. It records L1798 TOC by 4 M.U. (A.S.T.) on 19-3-1940 with the next entry being to 27 M.U. on 10-7-1940. Furthermore L1798 does not appear one in the detailed F.541 for 46 Sqn. during all of February to April 1940, but L1805 does.
This all needs more work !
Regarding typos on the May 9th ORB entries; 'P2652' should be N2652 and 'N2633' should be P2633.

Alex,

'N2633' was in a 'Blackout Block' of Hurricanes and so was never built. The F.78 for N2633 shows it with 46 Sqn. at this time and noted as 'Lost in HMS Glorious'.

Regards for now,

Martin.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hello Martin,
Thanks, I have just checked my AB books and yes NO a/c between N2631 to N2645.
That said there have been the odd one in other batches that seem to appear from time to time.
So it was P2633, agreed. Perhaps it was "PO-N" ?

As for -

L1798
No mention of 46 Sqn. Only 151/7OTU/5OTU/55 OTU. Became 3576M from 2 March, 1943.

L1812
213/22946.
NFT 29 May 1940.

L1814
46/6OTU/56OTU.
Became 3579M from 2 March, 1943.

L1892
46/111.
Hit by return fire from Ju88s and crash landed near Kenley 6 September 1940.

N2652
46/229.
Damaged by Bf109s over Edenbridge and abandoned Ightham Place, Kent 30 September 1940.

P2652
Ditched off Malta on Ferry Flight 22 February 1941.

All the best
Alex

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

It might also be worth noting that the two problem aircraft, which seem to be L1798 v L1805, were flown by P/O Bunker on both the outbound and inbound journeys - might be significant, might not....
Sadly he was lost in the sinking of HMS Glorious.
I am inclined to think that L1798 was a typo. I know that it's nothing like the probably correct L1805, but there you go. It won't be the first time I've come across serials in ORBs that aren't even close to being correct.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hello Andy,
Re L1798.
Noted in 151 Sqn documents from 28 January 1939 up to 23 September 1939. Then in the ORB for January and February 1940.
Noted with 5 OTU in September 1940 and then as crashed on 10 September 1940 with 55 OTU and ended as 3576M dated 2 March 1943.

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hi Andy,
I found AIR2/7262 but it isn't digitised.
Looked also under its old reference S5301/ID/46/259, same result.
How many pages were there ?
Thanks
Alex

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

AIR 2/7262 is at about 155 pages. Most of it is reports and proceedings from various officers participating in both south (Aandalsnes area) and north (Narvik area). Not much about 46 squadron directly I'm afraid. Here's extracts regarding 46 squadron:



https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/16/AIR-2-7262_1.jpg


https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/16/AIR-2-7262_2.jpg


https://i.imgrpost.com/imgr/2021/06/16/AIR-2-7262_3.jpg


There's one more page but I'm not able to upload it to IMGrPost.



Bengt

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Many thanks Bengt, I thought that it would be many pages, which would put it out of my price range.
Would have liked to have had the opportunity to view through them but not yet digital.
Again many thanks for providing the pages relevant to 46 Squadron.
I appreciate the kind gesture.
Do you know if any other squadrons are mentioned in the document ?

Alex

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

The correct name of the ship that took the Hurricanes back is COXWOLD, not Cotswold.

The ship sailed with the "slow convoy" on June 8th, which would have fallen prey to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau if they had not run into the Glorious first.
Details of the ship are in the British shipbuilding database.
http://shippingandshipbuilding.uk/vi...vessel=COXWOLD

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

I'll have to check again Alex but I don't think so.


Bengt

Re: 46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.
 

Hello Bengt and Birgir,
Thanks to you both for the very helpful information on the SS ‘Coxwold’, which I will refer to later.

It seems clear that 46 Squadron only took 18 Hurricanes to Norway, just those launched from ‘Glorious’. All sources I have seen support that number. The inclusion of L1798 instead of L1805 in the May 9th listing in the squadron ORB is a mystery. Even more odd is that it is recorded flying operationally once (May 28th ) during the campaign. It is clear too from reading the ORB that it was written up sometime after the unit returned from Norway so it should be no surprise if errors crept in.

The F.78 aircraft history card for L1798 has no mention of 46 Squadron. It had been flying with 151 Squadron until 14 February 1940 when it was belly-landed, receiving extensive damage in the process. L1798 was then Taken On Charge by 54 Maintenance Unit on 19 February 1940, or rather recovered by them. Next it was TOC by 4 M.U. (A.S.T.) for repair on 19 March 1940. This leaves a gap of almost four months until the following entry on the F.78, for 27 M.U. on 10 July 1940.

I have to believe the two references to L1798 are in error. L1798 does not appear once in the detailed 46 Squadron F.541 for all of March and April 1940, but L1805 does. L1805 is recorded many times in the 46 Squadron ORB from May 28th to June 8th when it was lost on the ‘Glorious’ but L1798 was being flown by various units into 1941 at least.

A short recap on the fates of the 18 Hurricanes taken to Norway.
10 were lost in ‘Glorious’ on June 8th .
3 were lost in action (crashed) on May 29th .
2 were abandoned in a damaged state on evacuation of Bardufoss on June 8th (L1812 and N2543).
3 were returned to the UK on board the ‘Coxwold’ (L1814, L1892 and N2652).

This week I acquired a copy of ‘STRAIGHT AND LEVEL’ by Kenneth ‘Bing’ Cross and Vincent Orange. This was very helpful in clarifying the three accidents at Skanland on May 26th and 27th , in conjunction with the 46 Squadron ORB. L1892 (Stewart) on the 26th and L1814 (Bunker) on the 27th were both overturned on landing or take-off. Whereas the aircraft of Cross (P2632) on the 26th suffered only minor damage to the tips of the propeller blades and this was repaired the same day and flown again many times during the campaign. That leaves N2652 which for unknown reasons became unserviceable on return from a patrol on June 2nd . We know it subsequently reached the UK and was repaired.

From a variety of published and online resources I know a little more about the SS ‘Coxwold’. It and the rest of the slow ‘equipment’ convoy apparently left Harstad late on June 7th . The ‘Coxwold appears to have reached Scapa Flow on June 14th and sailed on to the Clyde the following day. At a guess, looking at distance and probable speed, it would have taken that slow convoy at least five days to reach Scapa Flow from Harstad. Unfortunately the ship’s Movement Card (in the BT 389 series online at TNA) does not record any details of its movements in Norway. To disassemble N2652 at Bardufoss from the evening of June 2nd to putting it on the ‘Coxwold’ must have taken several days of hard work, especially with scarce transport and a difficult road network in the area. Presumably there was not enough time or resources to salvage L1812 and N2543.

Thanks to the contributions of all I feel I have a much better understanding of 46 Squadron operations in Norway and the fates of all the Hurricanes they took with them.

Regards,

Martin.