Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

A Fw 190 was claimed by P/O Richard Lewis, 602 Sqn, on this date.

Location was 'mid-channel', time 11.30 hrs. Observed a/c landing on water.

Any corresponding losses?

Cheers,

Bruce

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Hi,

probably no Fw-190 losess. I could only find this:
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/Kra...xxnqz4eodtFOIp


Maybe someone have more detailed informations about Friedrich Uffeln?


Regards

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

GQM loss return 24 Feb 1942 item 10 and JFV Vol. 7:
20.02.42 4.(Einsatzstaffel)/Jagdfliegerschule 5 Feindflug Luftkampf Jäger, Kanal, 100% Bf 109 E-7 WNr. 6505 (in JFV 7 WNr. 5605, probably a typo) weisse 17 Gefr Friedrich Uffeln, vermisst

Regards
Leo

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Lewis filed a number of claims in this combat; nothing from JG 1, 2 or 26 and why an aged Bf 109 E-7 was flying on operations over the Channel with a number of others especially when Spitfires were around is hard to comprehend

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Thanks guys. The combat report states the e/a (two) took off from Mardyck; so this was the base of EJG-5?

Chris, have you referred to Foreman's FC Victory Claims? A handy book but full of errors. The combat report indicates a single claim for one Fw 190 destroyed, looks like a case of mistaken identity.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Hello Bruce,

the base of 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5 (not EJG 5) was Octeville near Le Havre.

Regards
Leo

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

I have checked the CR and agree, John Foreman has got it very wrong!

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Thanks for clearing that up, Leo.

Yes, Chris, he sure did, together with numerous other entries in that volume.

Lewis later (1943-44) flew the Vengeance d/b in New Guinea.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

....thus Chris, can we get it right this time?? :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

The report is available online. I do not see a mention of cine camera use. I also note that Lewis flew as a wingman of Finucane. Finucane had a bad opinion amongst other pilots who suspected fake claims.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7492071

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Are you suggesting guilt by association, Franek?

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

I am just looking for a possible explanation. I consider it a possibility, but not a fact as such. I am aware of various cases, when attacked aircraft were claimed destroyed, but actually returned to base. One notable case was when both engaged pilots claimed victories, but both of them returned home unscathed. I do recall my late RAF friend mentioned, that there were some pilots claiming victories, when in clouds, and nobody could seen them. He did not reveal any name though, he said it is gone. Still, I have in my mind a case of Ian Gleed, who in April 1941 scored a German flying boat with another pilot. His combat report is quite graphic, but there was no such loss noted. I have seen it tied to a Ju 88 loss, but the latter was claimed elsewhere by another pilot.
How to explain that?

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

I presume you are talking about Ian "Widge" Gleed of 87 Sqn? Shores says Do 18 on 24 May 1941 and then Foreman says a Do 17 which he presumes to have been a II./KG 77 Ju 88 (German records state this crash-landed at Le Culot with 40% Flak damage and two wounded crew) which shot down a Spitfire! Gleed & Thorogood's claim was off the Scillies at 0730 hrs while the claim for a Spitfire by a Bordfunker was 40 km north of Swansea in the afternoon. No seaplanes were lost this day

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Yes, I think it was the one. I recall Gleed described the crash of the aircraft in the sea. As you note, there is no evidence of that, including possible blue on blue.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7441867

I believe that there was a claim for the Ju 88 by a Polish pilot, possibly rejected by the FC. Sorry, I do not remember the details.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

When I checked NA I could not see the full report but it is mentioned in F540. As to the Ju 88, being based at Beauvais in France to the east and more regularly used for night ops, why would it be operating by day over west Wales and then land at Le Culot in Belgium with the cause being stated as flak not fighters?

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Franek, I really wouldn't be too concerned about the lack of cine camera, nor that Lewis was flying as No. 2 to Paddy Finucane.

Whilst it's hard to be completely certain, as obviously none of us was present, it seems that Lewis's claim 'holds water'.

He seems to be the only pilot of RAF FC to claim that day, 20/2/42, and claims between Bomber and Coastal Commands together were apparently just a single Ju 88 damaged (off the Shetlands).

As we know, Lewis claimed a Fw 190 over the Channel, and Luftwaffe records indicate the loss of a Bf 109 in a dogfight over the 'Kanal'. Surely just a case of mistaken identity.

Let me know if you think I'm missing something.

Bruce

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Indeed Bruce

That is my own thinking as well.
The Fw 190 was still a newbie in the west and presumably everyone wanted to claim
one, a bit like the Luftwaffe rather claimed a Spitfire than a Hurricane.

Why not start a topic about "false claims" made by RAF (and the Russians) on the Allied section?
But perhaps the general consensus is that all the Allied boys were honest?

However I am still waiting for someone kind enough to put me straight with regard
to what is wrong with Foreman and his claim version this day.
I simply don't want to mix it with the British National Archives, since last
time I tried I ended up going in circle after circle always ending up where I
begun.....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Stig: I am afraid I cannot clarify whey John appears to have got this wrong. One author I know did not realise the printers had missed out a whole page which made the rest of the chapter read incorrectly. All I can say is the book, which was published in 2005, says one thing, the combat reports and F540 say something else

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Yes Chris, thanks.

I understand that, but what I am interested in is to try and correct what
Foreman says, so if you could just summarize what the reports and F540 says
I would be most grateful :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Bruce
Please, check where Le Havre and Dunkirk is. This is not a simple mistaken identity, unless a German pilot popped to a Duty Free. That is the point.

Stig
Gleed claimed a flying boat and IIIRC he described that the flying boat landed on sea and then it was finished. No such loss is recorded.

Chris
I just vaguely remember that there was a claim filed for Ju 88 that day, and the report survived but was rejected or not processed. Since I read about that a few years ago, and this was not my research, I do not remember details.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Franek

I am interested in the claims made 20 Feb 1942, not in Gleed's claim.
That is a topic drift created later and I can only suggest a new topic, either
about Gleed (or Finucane) as such or Allied false claims in general.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

I have posted a link to the combat report, and you can find ORB there as well.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

I know you have
If you re-read my answer you will also see why I cannot reach it.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

It seems to work OK for everyone else, Stig, so perhaps it's worth another try.

ORB: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8415526 (Summary of Events) and https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8415527 (Record of Events)

Sortie Report: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7492071

All these items are still downloadable free once you create an account (which is also free — just a matter of entering an email address and creating a password if I remember correctly).

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Franek, try re-reading the combat report.

Le Havre may well have been the base for 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5, but Lewis recorded the e/a scrambling from Mardyck. The combat therefore began in the vicinity of Dunkirk.

The report goes on to say that Finucane was hit and the pair headed for home, which at that time was RAF Redhill. I imagine they made landfall on the English coast in the vicinity of Folkestone, or possibly further south or north.

Le Havre is irrelevant to whether Lewis shot down a 109 or not. The combat didn't take place anywhere near there.

Sorry Stig, not interested in creating any such thread. But if someone does, I'll add what I can.

Cheers,

Bruce

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

No worries Bruce

Thanks Nick for being persistent. I have now managed to get accepted by the
NA.

Also thanks to Andy Mitchell who sent me the actual forms, ahead of me being capable of getting accepted.

Also thanks to Andy Marden who gave me moral support and a promise to help me if I get in "trouble" on the site.

Thanks Guys, your help was really, really great :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Hi,

The Bf 109 of 4.(Eins.)/J.F.S. 5 came down in the sea off Le Havre around midday, and the Germans expended a lot of effort trying to rescue the pilot.

I assume it was downed in combat with No. 41 Squadron, which engaged two "Bf 109 Fs" in the Le Havre area during a shipping reconnaissance mission between 10:28 and 12:00. F/Lt. Fitzgerald fired at one but ran out of ammunition, and no victory claims were submitted.

I'm not sure what No. 602 actually shot down, but I don't think it was the J.F.S. 5 aircraft near Le Havre.

Sources: No. 11 Group Appendices; Y-Service Reports; No. 41 Squadron ORB

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Thanks for your input Andrew. Your information certainly alters the picture somewhat!

It does begs the question what a/c were engaged by 602. Not such a straightforward case as I originally thought.

Apologies to Franek.

Re: Fw 190 loss, 20 Feb 1942
 

Hello,
F/O Lewis gun camera combat footage from Feb 20, 1942 can be accessed at IWM web site : https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060035139 (starting at 03.45). Not very convincing.

David