Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Everyone

Does anyone know if the HS 129 B-2 (?) armed with the 3cm cannon served in the above theatre.

If so, which units operated them?

Information or pointers will be appreciated.

Cheers

DK

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

I have had a bit more time for a hunt round the forum. I see that Martin Pegg and Dénes Bernád have published books on this type (one of Pegg's is out of print and expensive s/h).

Amazon.co.uk shows two titles, but there seems to be a mix-up:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/o/ASIN/18578...613482-7203834

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Henschel-HS-...e=UTF8&s=books

I assume one has the wrong cover thumbnail. Anyhow, Which book is best for info on Tunisian theatre aircraft, units, pilots, markings and camouflage?

Meantime I have found this on the web:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/SchG1.html

which indicates 5 Staffel of Schlachtgeschwader 1 (or was it designated Sturzkampfgeschwader 1 at this time), equipped with B-2s, so I assume these were armed with the 3cm weapon?

Any further info appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

After looking at the various books by Pegg and Bernad and other information, a "B-2" with a 30 mm MK 101 cannon was operated by 4.(PZ)/Sch.G.2 at El Adem. This aircraft had Wk. Nr. 0296, which originally was contracted as a B-1 (trop), but which was upgraded to B-2 standards.

The aircraft is Blue A, and was destroyed by the Germans after a crash landing.

The aircraft is often profiled as having the circular iuntakes of the B-1. But if upgraded to B-2 standars, it would have had the rectangular and angled under-cowl intakes.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

No. They actually quote the wrong author :(

The new Midland Publ. title is authored by yours truly. It focuses mostly on production and technical isses, and has no details on combat operations.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Modeldad
Hi Dénes

Thank you both for your input here.

Dénes: it is a shame about the mixup on the Amazon site ... you should contact them to resolve it, and maybe you should add something there about your volume?

Modeldad: you seem to suggest that only one aircraft was equipped with the 3cm? Also, the El Adem deployment would predate the Tunisian campaign.

Another question springs to mind: were aircraft that were armed with the 3cm cannon also (often/usually) armed with a pair of bombs on under wing racks?

Thank you in advance

DK

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hello DK

Re your latter question:

I have an image of a Hs 129, with the 30 mm tankbusting cannon, which also has a small bomb under each wing. This doesn't resolve whether this was the usual/frequent armament fit, but may be of interest to you. I will convert to jpg and attach to another post, but give me a day or two - it's getting late over here! Werknr = 0373.

Cheers

Boomerang

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

My notes above seem to be the only specific reference to an aircraft.

Pegg notes that with respect to Tunisa, in December 1942 5./SchG.1 was redesignated 8(Pz)/Sch.G.2. By January 1943, he notes that most Hs 129 attacks were carried out by aircraft fitted with 30 mm cannon and bomb rack under each wing [note: he does not indicate if boimbs were carried, just that racks were fitted]. He then goes on to note that some Hs 129 were maintained as pure bomb carries with four SD 50s on the center line rack and AB 23 containers on each of the wing racks.

There are, however, no definitive pictures of Hs 129s with the 30 mm cannon installed. There is one small picture, head on, of an Hs 129 under reapir at El Aouina. One can make out a cannon instillation under the fuselage that has been unhinged from.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Boomerang
Hi Modeldad

Thank you both for your input on this.

Boomerang: I look forward to the picture.

Meanwhile, this seems to show the 3cm and bombs on wing racks on a North African theatre a/c:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hs129-4.html

WDYT?

DK

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Dollars to Donuts that picture is in Russia.

That is a B-1 of II. / Sch.G.1 Russia, perhaps June/July 1942

Pegg identifies the bombs as SC 10

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

"Dollars to Donuts that picture is in Russia."

Really? Ooops! Thanks MD.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

But is that not a cannon gondola under the fuslage?

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

yes it is. According to Pegg the 30mm Mk. 101 was first used on the Eastern Front in June 1942.

There are a couple of excellent picture of the B-1 with the Mk 101 in his book. The extenal cover was realtively low in cross section.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Modeldad

Thank you for the confirmation. You may think me mad, but I'm modelling GHQ's 1/285th HS129

http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/ac41.html

and I thought to add bombs and racks to the wings (the model only includes a choice of 3cm or 7.5cm cannon) if historically likely. Hence my interest.

Thanks again

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

On the 75 mm I doubt it. On the 30 mm it is only a reference to racks, not bombs. But if that is your reference. So be it.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

"But if that is your reference. So be it."

Oh! Don't be like that! ;-)

Seriously, I'd like it to be accurate ... so thought I'll only add the racks. But then I found this:

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/a...t/bioll129.htm

Nice model!

DK

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Considering he had no references.

According to Pegg, there was a "Blue O", and it was a B-2 fitted with Mk 101 / 30 mm. It was with 4.(Pz)/Sch.G.2 at Castel Benito, Libya, February 1943. Wk. Nr. began with 03. It was "abandoned" and examined by the RAF.

It does not appear to have been in 78/79/80. But rather close to them with Farbton 65 underside. Perhaps Italian paints were used over 70/71

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Thank you for that MD.

Is there a record of the fate of this aircraft?

Jeffrey Ethell's "Eagles over North Africa and the Mediterranean 1940–1943" has a picture of an HS129 displaying these markings and mottled scheme (p44), captioned as " ... 'Blue O', an HS 129B-1 with 4/Schlachtgeschwader 2 ... taxis out at Libyia in Novemebr 1942."

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Gentleman:

I believe that the best interpretation of the attached images is that they show a Hs 129 with a cannon fitted under the fuselage in a gondola (and hence likely to be the 30mm tank-busting installation) and a small bomb under each wing.

Obviously the picture quality isn't great. I also cannot provide information as to whether this is an operational setup, or is for demonstration purposes. Nonetheless, I have posted them in the hope they can further the discussion.

Another image (not posted) shows WerkNr = 0373

Cheers

Boomerang

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Great Boomerang! Thank you again! Which DVD are the stills from?

So ... would there have been an operational issue in terms of weight, for arming with the 3cm and wing-mounted bombs?

Would there have been a clear distinction operationally between ground attack and antitank sorties, specifically? (Bombs on the wings and centre line for the former, 3cm on the centre line for the latter.)

Arming with 3cm cannon and bombs would seem to offer more flexibility per sortie.

WDYT?

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Boomerang
Hi All

Not quite a shameless 'bump' ... I have (only) just found this page, which has some good images on it:

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/lhs1291.htm

which has a slightly less grainy version of your images:

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/lhs1291.htm

possibly cannon and bombs in this shot:

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Hs129-3s.jpg

While they do not conclusively answer the question of arming with canon and bombs operationally, it looks likely.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hello DK:

Great images!

There seems sound photographic evidence showing the Hs 129 equipped with the underfuselage antitank cannon and also fitted with underwing bombs, this of itself doesn't resolve the question about whether aircraft so fitted were used operationally.

Perhaps Allied intelligence reports could indicate whether Hs 129s with the underfuselage cannon/bomb combination were used against Allied forces in Tunisia.

Good luck with the modelling project - trust you have a steady hand for that scale.

Cheers

Boomerang

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Operationally, I'd suggest that the attack flight path needed to fire the cannon would differ considerably from that required to aim and drop the bombs. Generally, it was considered a bad idea to come back and attack a target for a second time, although being well-armoured might have influenced the pilots' opinions there. I suspect that the small bombs were used as "nuisance" weapons rather than for secondary attacks, but I agree that they would provide some operational flexibility. I doubt that they would have weight-limited the aircraft - at least in more temperate climes.

Re: Did the HS 129 B-2 operate in Tunisia 1942/43?
 

Hi Boomerang
Hi Graham

Thank you for your input ... I am pleased my enquiry generated some interest.

Graham: I guess I was thinking that the bomb armament may be useful for targets of opportunity (for nuisance value, as you say) given that the canon would have had a limited amount of ammunition.

Boomerang: reasonably steady hand, helped by a big fat magnifying lens and (in the pipeline) custom decals for 4(Panzerjägdstaffel)/Schlachtgeschwader 2 ...

Thanks again.

DK