Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,

While looking for other items, I came across the following photos of Italian aircraft which hopefully may be of some interest to board users:

Fiat C.R.30B?

https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...302006611.html

https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...302034601.html

Fiat G.50

https://www.ebay.it/itm/393528004213...wAAOSwUbVhI-0O

Macchi C.202

https://www.ebay.it/itm/294349559559...YAAOSwIWRhIUNv

S.M.79

https://www.ebay.it/itm/114952049157...8AAOSwuLJhJPFo

????

https://www.ebay.it/itm/393525329812...kAAOSwgqJhIksq


Regards,

Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,
the MC 200 looks for me more like an Fiat G.50
h.

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,

Thanks you're correct and I've fixed it accordingly.

Regards,

Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Cant Z.1007 of 211 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/234189210948...oAAOSw2SZhQita


NB John Beaman, this is a WW.II photo just like the Caproni Predappio Ca.603 you wrongly moved to the prewar board. See general board.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay there is a nice photo of Italian traing aircraft at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/284510765327...IAAOSw5jBhfprF


Ca.164,Ca.100,CMASA G.8?




Has anyone any idea where the photo was taken/which unit is shown?


Also on ebay is a nice photo of a Macchi C.200 of 371 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/234280356971...0AAOSwP~phjBBJ


Also a Caproni Ca.101 albeit in Hungarian markings at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/393696689576...8AAOSwqIRhjTCI



https://www.ebay.it/itm/393696695714...oAAOSwbR1hjTEH



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Thank you for posting the links.


Because Ca.164, Ca.100 and G.8 were used by staff flights of the Squadre Aeree too, I think that they could have belong to such a unit: training aircraft of the flight schools always had their unit markings. I don't know the airport but it could be Padua: if so, the aircraft belonged to II Squadra Aerea


ciao


Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hi Gianandrea,


Thanks for the response. I hadn't thought of the staff flights. Could you tell me,is published information available anywhere of on which aircraft were operated by which staff flight. I suspect not,but thought I'd take the opportunity to ask.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a series of photos of Italian aircraft based at Napoli-Capodichino at:


https://www.ebay.de/sch/m.html?item=...alien&_sacat=0


Photos include:


Caproni Ca.164
Macchi C.200
Savoia Marchetti SM.79
Savoia Marchetti SM.84


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a series of photos of a Fiat BR.20M MM22257 of 5 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.de/sch/m.html?item=...annes&_sacat=0


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Clint the biplane at bottom of post 1 I believe is a Caproni Ca.100 trainer with a Fiat radial engine.


Regards Nick

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hi Nick,


My belated thanks.I'm sure you're correct. Here's another Ca.100 :


https://www.ebay.de/itm/363635562330...0AAOSw4J1hoJMI


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hi Snautzer,


Great photos. Thanks for the link. A shame that you stopped posting (as also with the Luftwaffe photo thread here on TOCH),'real life' taking priority I suppose.


Here's photo of a Savoia Marchetti S.M.82 of 48 Squadriglia:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/353787911966...EAAOSwiaZho6uv



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of what may be a Savoia Marchetti S.59,however the photo is captioned as being from 1943.This appears a little unlikely and the markings don't appear to reflect the post June 1940 national markings, but the seller also has KG 26 photos for sale also captioned as Italy 1943.So my question is. Is there even a remote chance that a S.59 could be found in Italy in 1943? If so operated by whom? A training unit would appear to be the only option if the operator was military.The photo is at :


https://www.ebay.de/itm/224727948200...kAAOSwGwhhriNt


The site at http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/s59.html has the S.59 as quote 'After the withdrawal from combat units in 1937, the vehicle was used as a training vehicle for many years.' So perhaps one may have survived. Is there any evidence at all for post June 1940 use by Italy?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hi Clint, reason is 3 fold.
Lack of reaction made me believe there is ample intrest in these pictures on this board.

The way one puts in a picture on this board is more work.

A lot more people see these ebay pictures on the other board. Some writers even make us of it en tell me about that. Or persons looking for that plane granddad was raging war in.

The ebay collection is every airframe from what ever country that i find intresting, split in it own thread.

But no worries, i do look in here too. And if i can help or add info even in long ago threads i will.

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Further to the post in the thread on the Savoia Marcheet S.59. Has anyone a list of the Regia Aeronautica Seaplane trainer bases to hand in order to determine whether any either shared an airfield with,or were in the vicinity of a KG 26?


Also currently on ebay is a photo of a Regia Aeronautica Savoia Marchetti S.73 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/203743339054...4AAOSwqnZhsJ3x


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Italian seaplane training units were based in the Pola area - Portorose and Puntisella - and I don't think that KG 26 units ever operated from there.


All Gruppen of KG 26 were based at time, in 1943, at Grosseto airport in order to train in the torpedo bomber role. The skyline of the mountains in the back of the picture is similar to that one visible at Porto Santo Stefano, in the Argentario promontory, about 45 km from Grosseto.


https://pensione-week-end-porto-sant...o.hotelmix.it/ (41 foto)



In that village a depot of the Regia Aeronautica was located so I think that it's possible that the picture was taken there.


According to Gregory Alegi the aircraft should be a S.16 ter (very similar to the S.59, development of S.16). In all pictures of the S.59 I've seen, this seaplane wore a silver paint (just like the CZ.501).



About post #7. I don't know any publication about aircraft employed in staff flights. Some figures about aircraft in charge are contained in the volume 10 of the serie "dimensione cielo" devoted to training and liaison aircraft.
E.g., in march 1942 the Gruppo Autonomo di Volo of the 2a Squadra Aerea (Padova) had 13 G.8 on charge and the 3a Squadra Aerea (Roma Centocelle) 6 G.8; one G.8 was with the Comando Aeronautica Albania at Tirana.



ciao


Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello Gianandrea,


Thanks for the research.There is much to ponder there. I'd gone with the 5.59 for the id of the machine as it seemed plausible according to the timeframe. Having received your answer I've been undertaking some image searches and found this link to a S.16 at Guidonia in 1944 ! surrounded by Australian troops:


https://www.alamy.com/130-siai-s16-a...ip%3d0%26pl%3d


I would never even have thought about any S.16 variant surviving to this date,never mind seeing photos of two.



Thanks also for the information on the use of the CMASA G.8 in use as staff aircraft which is very informative and helpful.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

The S.16 at Guidonia in 1944 is the famous Gennariello, piloted by Francesco De Pinedo in the 1925 raid Sesto Calende-Melbourne-Tokio-Roma.


Unluckily, the seapleane was wrecked and not preserved



Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

I think it is the same S.16ter

If you blow it up, the digits 25 are pretty clearly visible after some digits which looks like 247.
Also the digits vaguely visible on the nose more resemble S.16 than S.59.

What a pity for 25340 surviving all the way into 1944/45 but not for posterity....
Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hi Stig,


Thanks. I believe you're correct. As well as the facts you list, in neither of the photos does the machine have an engine. That seems a bit too much of a coincidence.



Which I'm afraid leads to a couple of follow up questions.


Was the machine flown actually used at Guidonia for any reason,or was it simply an exhibit of some kind?.


I would also like to ask, given that both the S.16 ter and the S.59 bis appear to have had a long life after withdrawl from front line use with the Regia Aeronautica,does any evidence exist for the use of the machines after June 10 1940? I have a note, I believe from the table in Wawrzynski & Lalak's Regia Aeronautica 1935 - 1943 (though I'm struggling to find my copy at the moment) that the S.59 bis did remain on strength at that time. So has anyone anything further at all?


Rgeards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/384619261102...oAAOSwOzFhwPmw


Reversed negative 22 Squadriglia or ss on the fuselage? The reason I ask is that 22 Squadriglia is shown as Middle East baed in Chris Dunning's Courage Alone and in any event in January 1942 disbanded,whereas the machine shown wears a european camouflage scheme and the information provided by the seller would seem to definitely indicate the photo dates from 1942.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Clint

There is a photo of SS-2 around, so I can only assume SS-1 is correct here.

I would be interested to know what the code SS stood for.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Stig,


Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw it, but SS = Sottosegrettario?.
That is the under secretary of state for the Regia Aeronautica.But I'm not definite that the SM.81 shown was assigned to this depertment and perhaps someone better informed can provide confirmation/refutation.


Have you further information on SS-2? Specifically the type of aircraft? I guess if a liaison of transport type tht increases the probability of what passes for memeory in my case being correct.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Thanks Clint

So in other words a politically assigned meaning. OK works for me.
The SS-2 was another SM.81 as far as I can judge.
Just a photo, nothing else.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

SS is for the Squadriglia Autonoma of the Napoli-Capodichino based Scuola Specialisti.


The picture had been taken there: in the background is visible the dome of the still existing church of San Pietro a Patierno



ciao


Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Thanks Gianandrea

Takes a Specialisti to know that.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

About the Clint’s questions in post #21, I may answer that probably the Gennariello was preserved at Guidonia together with other historic aircraft. In fact, in another picture published in an old issue of the italian magazine JP-4 - and taken by the australian when had been made that one of the De Pinedo’s S.16 linked in post #18 - were visible also a Pegna aircraft and a SVA of the 87a Squadriglia (that performed the flight over Vienna on 9 august 1918 lead by Gabriele D’Annunzio). The SVA is probably that one now preserved at the Italian AF museum at Vigna di Valle.
The mountain skyline in the picture on auction in Ebay could be that one surrounding part of the background of the Guidonia airport even though it seems different to me.
About the last use of S.59, in the book written by Gen. Francesco Pricolo “La Regia Aeronautica nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale settembre 1939-novembre 1941” is reported that on 31 october 1939 37 seaplanes of the older types – S.59bis, S.62 and S.68 - were on charge and other 7 were on repair at the producer’s plants. According to “La Storia dell’Aeronautica Militare – i velivoli” by Gregory Alegi, S.59 were phased out at the end of 1939.

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello Gianandrea,


Thanks for the full and interesting response.I am intrigued by the information from La Regia Aeronautica nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale settembre 1939-novembre 1941 that you mention and believe I might be inclined to buy a copy. Can you tell me, does the book contain more information in terms of aircraft available to the Regia Aeronautica in the 1939-41 period,particularly more elderly aircraft?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

The book include one chapter with author's opinion about the situation of the Regia Aeronautica aircraft when he took command of the Air Force in november 1939, but he don't deal with the older type of aircraft that are only mentioned in a list with indications of number in service ect.


ciao


Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

H Giandrea,


OK, Thanks.The list does sound kind of interesting as a starting point.Having checked on the book I do note its rather elderly - 1971 if i recall correctly.So does the Alegi work you also mentioned have similar,perhaps more uptodate information on training and other non -frontline aircraft numerical availability by type ca June 1940? Having said which I note it is a bit pricier?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are a couple of photos of damaged Italian aircraft phtographed by the US Forcrd:


A Bf 109 of 153 Squadriglia:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/39383998323...0AAOSw~Jdh0eY0


and a Ju 87:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/38465229730...8AAOSwsSRh0ee-


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Possibly still on ebay is a photo of a Savoia Marchetti S.M79 of 281 Squadriglia at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/304286737610...EAAOSwTUlh0won


I'm not certain that there is anything significant about this aircraft,but the sale has ended within hours of being posted,so possibly the photo is significant.


Edit


On 04.01.22 photo on ebay again,so presumably not significant at all.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of Italian aircraft in Red Cross markings:


Cant Z.506


https://www.ebay.it/itm/175113124733...oAAOSwS-hh5Bho


Savoia Marchetti S.73


https://www.ebay.de/itm/373902291633...UAAOSwgWJh7-Mh


Has anything been published hitherto on Italian Red Cross aircraft,particularly on the organisation of units and which aircraft served with which units?


Also on ebay today a photo of some IMAM Ro.41 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/393898829406...oAAOSwyDlh7-M0




Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

As far as I know, there isn't any in deep history of the red cross italian aircraft and their units/organization. You can find some details in the histories of some aircraft, especially CZ.506.


The aircraft at this link


https://www.ebay.de/itm/373902291633...UAAOSwgWJh7-Mh


is a S.81, not a S.73


ciao
Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Thanks Gianandrea,


Here are some other Italian aircraft currently on ebay:


CMASA G.50B

https://www.ebay.it/itm/175136678168?hash=item28c6f5a118:g:4kkAAOSwuoph9-pN

Reggiane Re.2000

https://www.ebay.it/itm/175136652856?hash=item28c6f53e38:g:TwcAAOSwZ4dh9-dL

Savoia Marchetti S.74


https://www.ebay.it/itm/175141035605...EAAOSwy1th--oc


and some Italian aircraft from the Spanish Civil War:


IMAM Ro.37

https://www.ebay.it/itm/175136666087?hash=item28c6f571e7:g:02gAAOSwb19h9-fw

Caproni Ca.310

https://www.ebay.it/itm/175136555746?hash=item28c6f3c2e2:g:0H4AAOSwTTNh99o g


Savoia Marchetti SM.79

https://www.ebay.it/itm/175134101025?hash=item28c6ce4e21:g:ykMAAOSw~29h9XX Z



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

Hello,


Currently on ebay are photos of Savoia Marchetti SM.79 214.3 at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/175156970536...AAAOSwhtFiB9ix


and a crashed aircraft with an unusual white cross marking at:


https://www.ebay.it/itm/393934944183...AAAOSwd0ViCV~L


Could someone please advise what this marking represents?


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

It's a Macchi Nieuport Ni.29 of the 75a Squadriglia, XXIII Gruppo at Cinisello Balsamo (Milan), that operated those biplane fighters for a short period in mid '20


ciao


Gianandrea

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

The cross marking was the Squadriglia insigna at that time

Re: Photos Italian Aircraft
 

The cross marking was the Squadriglia insigna at that time