JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Does anybody know if this is the full crew of this aircraft which force landed behind Russian lines on 29 Sep 1941, at least 3 were captured. Did they survive the war ?

Gefr Heinz Wendt FF
Gefr Jakob Merzenick BF
Ogefr Heinz Hartmann BS
Gefr Josef Marquardt B

Thanks for your help
Peter

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

can anybody help please ?

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Hello Peter,

according to the GQM loss return this was the complete crew of the Ju 88 A-5 WNr. 5039. All four are listed as missing. Noted is the loss category 1 = missing due to enemy action on an operational flight/ vermisst durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug. The further fate of the crew is unknown to me.

Regards
Leo

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Hello Black6,

Ju 88 A-5 W.Nr. 5039 "4D+HN", 4./KG 30, took off from Stavanger-Sola and was lost in the Klimovka Bay, Kola Peninsula, 29 Sept. 1941.

The crew members you list are the full crew of W.Nr. 5039. They are all listed as POW and as such, did normally return to Germany after the war.

Cheers
Marc

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Marc

I find it extremely unlikely they took off from Sola. I would say Banak is far more likely. I paid a visit to that airfield some years ago and it is amazing how look-a-like this place is. Close your eyes and you can almost hear the 88s taking off.... :)

As usual I fail to locate the place you state, in this case Klimovka Bay. Locating Soviet places are extremely tricky, at least for me! Nothing on Google maps or google at all. Do you know where this Bay actually is? Mission was as usual to Murmansk.
May I also ask from where you have the extra details such as the place they came down and that they were made POW?

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

According to Michael Holm’s www.ww2.dk the 4./KG 30 was based at Banak from 16 Aug 1941 to 30 Sep 1941.

Regards
Leo

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Stig / Marc

I too have this was found by Soviet Forces at Klimkova Bay 01.10.41
(Source: Matti Salonen NVM); I agree t/o from Sola is much too far.
Banak is of course Laxelv Airfield built 1938 (Banak = Airfield at Lakselv)
and thus not real name, but kind of code like Bansö.

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

I know Ed

What is Salmon River compared to Banak?:cool:
To me the place will always be Banak....

Sorry, can't find Klimkova either.....:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Hi there Stig,

All details about W.Nr. 5039 do stem from Michael Balss's loss list, which sources GQM files as primary sources.

Cheers
Marc

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

OK Marc
In the case of Sola he is wrong. Just look at a map and you will see why.

For the other details he lists, others before him have consulted the GQM returns, such as Hannu Valtonen, Leo Rottler and many more, but none has so far added any such details Balss provide. Must be something else.

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Mardanov in his book about 1941 writes that they lost orientation and landed at Klimkovka Bay near Malyi Olenij island. Location is probably near this island: https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=69.2...,0.1&t=h&hl=ru
Pictures from area: https://aadjo.livejournal.com/7572.html


Crew was captured 12 days later near Tjuva Bay. Maybe this place: https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=69.2...,0.1&t=h&hl=ru


At the interrogation they told that they started from Luostari, mission was reconnaissance of coast.
He claims that Kennzeichen was "4D+RN".

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Thanks Andrus

That was interesting! Petsamo-Luostari was not a good airfield for bombers, but I suppose making a recce-mission instead of a bombing mission could do the trick.
Guess is, the crew either arrived during the evening the day before and got off on an early start after topping up their fuel or made an early start from Banak and topped up fuel along the way at Petsamo. I don't believe KG 30 ever had a detachment there.

Claiming they were lost, must mean they had encountered some dreadful weather. Navigating along a given coastline in decent weather is basically a piece of cake. Even I managed that.... :)

This information thus came from Soviet sources. Good to know!

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Thank you guys.

I believe from their ranks that they were a very junior crew, maybe only recently from training ?

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Ed (Eggert) has kindly supplied me with details about a Ju 88 A WNr 3306 which was coded 4D+RN and which was lost on 16 Sep 1941. No crew loss known, so it seems they made it back to their own lines.

I feels pretty likely that Mardanov has mixed the unit codes between these two aircraft

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

I found these pictures claimed to be about this event:


https://vk.com/wall231589662_10691

https://mop-78.livejournal.com/2593.html


Maybe Mardanov took plane code from some picture?

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Yes, that is 4D+RN but since Luftwaffe loss records confirm WNr 3306 was coded 4D+RN when lost, that is the aircraft we are looking at, not 5039

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

There is Klimovka bay (губа Климовка) on russian Google maps: https://www.google.ru/maps/dir//1846...7448!3e3?hl=ru
It is quite visible that Ju.88 on this remarkable place has 4D+RN at foto (https://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploa...9/DSCN0736.jpg)
Place is Klimovka not Motovkiy bay, and this is 5039. There must be some error in GQ-data perhaps. Plane later was salvaged by russians and crushed later by test flight.
Also this plane was one on minelaying mission to West passage to White sea but crew lied about this. AFAIK only 3 went POW, also one dyed while crew get through tundra.
Wr.Nr. 3806 landed on german-held territory and thus cannot be photoed by soviet side.
3806 also may be 4D+RN, why not? 5039 became this designation after 3806 loss. There is some other letter beneath R on photo.

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

This plane on russian forum. Many photo but poor quality https://sk16.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=1064

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Again very interesting IgorrB

First of all the WNr were 3306 and 5039 (none of my sources ever mention 3806)

I presume, through your answer, there are Soviet/Russian documents today which explicitly state the photos are of WNr 5039? What I am driving at is that you are not just quoting from a book or other second hand source, for example Mardanov, are you?.

Looks like we are back to a place called Klimovka Bay. Fair enough. It also seems we are in agreement which place it is. Certainly fits the mission profile, recce flight along the coast.

We also agree upon the code given on the crashed aircraft 4D+RN.

This is what Hannu Valtonen says about the two aircraft

WNr 088.3306 4D+RN 5./KG 30 crashed at the Motovskiy Bay (fiord?) inlet 16.9.1941 due to technical reasons (90% damage). The crew was taken away. The Russians captured the aircraft, made it flyable but it crashed (was destroyed?) 13.2.1943.

WNr 088.5039 4./KG 30 crashed in the Murmansk area with the fate of the crew unknown (+ listing of the four individuals)

From the above it is quite clear that added facts from non-German sources have been added to WNr 3306 but not to 5039.

As I see it, it is of course perfectly possible previous given facts from Soviet/Russian sources are behind the mistakes here and the data supplied to Hannu Valtonen were incorrect.
Are we talking about two aircraft both carrying 4D+RN? Did 3306 in fact carry 4D+RN at all?

Well, I don't get any further with this. Sorry!

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

OK, Igor, so 3306 landed in German held terretory. Thanks for that detail, it helps. BA-MA Fliegenden Verband losses (GQM series) actually do not give codes for either one. These must be second source (NvM?) or other.

Code appears be "4D+RN" but Soviet era photos can be doktored, as some (at least one of this plane) was published in English/American magazine and already known during the war, where Soviet sailor-soldier conviniently stands in front of the individual and staffel code. So I toss 4D-RN or 4D-HN out of the equation.

My investigation then focussed into minor details on the bellied Ju 88 A-5 ("4D+RN") and this appears have short Ju 88 A-1 "(early)" version* lifeboat hatch / compartmant and earlier located inspection hole, aft of it, fitting for 0885039, as it was ATG made A-1 originally (04.40) - and later upgraded wings/armament to A-5 standard - but fuselage was still older one (but repaired by WNF) A-1. But not fitting for 0883306 that was A-5 (HFW) and later version, made in February 1941.

Prior code (Stkz or Vbkz.) can not be stated for certainity, perhaps a/c has been transferred before as it was relatively old a/c (ATG assembled, already flying 29.04.40 at Leipzig). The Ju 88 at Vaenga has been known for some time, note ex-RAF Hampden, but this can quite well be A-5 088/5039 with some "new parts" (engines and props) scrounged from crashes elsewhere, even spares parts coming from the two Soviet Ju 88 K-1 sold to the USSR, flown over in May 1940 (0885023 and 5025)

*Later a/c (later production) had larger / longer lifeboat bay (4 man Rubber boat / dinghy with sail & oars AND survival-&-transmitter kit compartment).
My 10 cents.

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

My apologize to mistake 3806 against 3306. This plane never be found in any soviet documents as captured and salvaged.
Plane crashed on 13.2.43 was salvaged from Klimovka bay, where it landed 29.9.41. Alas, there is no trace of Wr.Nr. in soviet documents, AFAIK. But still, these documents may be found if one start to search it through archive. I know, there is interrogation report of prisoned crew, but not seen it with my own eyes.

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Hi IgorrB

First of all my apologies for perhaps prolonging this topic beyond necessity, but I confess it interests me, even if it may border on trivia for many of our members.

Since I cannot even approach Ed's skill with regard to visuals on Ju 88s I cannot make any comments to what he says.

However, just to get things 100% straight, since you at one point state "Alas, there is no trace of Wr.Nr. in soviet documents".
If WNr 3306 did not end up in Soviet hands, it is perfectly understandable there are no traces of that aircraft in Soviet files.
But does this also include WNr 5039?
If Soviet records don't mention either WNr 3306 or 5039 how was the ID actually made? When Valtonen published his book back in 1997 he must have been quite certain it was WNr 3306 which the Soviets captured and not 5039. Why this change?

However if the Soviet records do mention WNr 5039 then I would say the ID is pretty conclusive.

Personally I don't believe the photos have been "doctored" and what we are looking at is 4D+RN but is it WNr 3306 or 5039? I am still not convinced....sorry....:o

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

German docs say that 3306 was lost 16.09.41 and 5039 lost 29.9.41. Soviet docs say about plane salvaged at Klimovka bay where it downed 29.9.1941. There is interrogation report of crew with names of 5039's crew. I can't say why Valtonen mistaken with numbers. His work has many little errors like that. There was hard to find good soviet data back in 1997.

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Thanks Igorr B

Looks like the verdict is tipping over towards WNr 5039.
Does all our Ju 88 experts now agree with that?

Cheers
Stig

Re: JU88 "4D+HN" 5/KG30 missing 29 Sep 41
 

Hi!

In Valtonen's book:

• the Soviet data is from Juri Rybin's Russian archives research.
• Luftwaffe loss data is from Matti Salonen. He might know more of this?

Cheers,
Kari