Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Hey guys...

I am curious if there is a database somewhere that shows information on NAA-64 aircraft?

I am trying to research a specific loss history...but...given that these were originally for France...and then captured by the Luftwaffe...and mainly used in training schools...I assume loss info would be almost impossible to find.

I have "some" basic info on the Stkz...but no way to determine serial numbers based on that. I have also found a list of serials...but...that list contains only NAA-64 aircraft that survived, and were flown/owned privately post-war.

Does a full list even exist?

TIA

Mike

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

The Germans captured both NAA 57 & NAA 64. However, there was no correlation between the Stkz & construction/serial numbers. Do you only need info on NAA 64s

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Mike, what specific loss you are looking for?

Matti

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

They don't give any serial number or Stammkennzeichen but I have two deciphered signals on the transfer of a Harvard to Germany from France in July 1944:

CX/MSS/R257(C),69

From GEKEM ((Jagdkorps)) II, POFOP ((IA Ops.)) No. 3029, dated 25/7:
Transfer of a captured a/c.

1) American a/c, type Harvard IIB will be flown over to Oranienburg from Rosières on 9/8 by Stabsingenieur Beseler with the consent of OKL.

2) a) Route Rosières – Venlo – Münster, where an immediate landing will be made – Oranienburg.

b) Up at first light 9/8.

c) Flying height 200 metres.

d) Marking: bright yellow strips and German national badge.
3) If a change in the time of take-off and route becomes necessary through enemy action or the weather, formations will be informed with a reference to this order.

4) Inform subordinate units.

CX/MSS/T258/23

Signed JG 3 on 26/7:

Subject: ferrying of a captured a/c.

1) An American captured a/c, type Harvard (Roman) IIB, will be ferried with the authorisation of OKL from Rosières to Oranienburg on 9/8 by Stabs Ing. Weseler.

2) a) Flying route: Rosières – Venlo – Münster (intermediate landing there) – Oranienburg.

b) Take off: at dawn on 9/8.

c) Flying height: 200 metres.

d) Marking: (word illegible) yellow paint and nationality markings.

3) In case the enemy or weather situation makes deviations form the intended take-off time and flying route necessary, units who received this order will be informed.

4) Inform subordinate units.

NOTES: Compare R23(B),12 for information being sent to Oranienburg on 3/12 about a captured Lightning.

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

The NAA 64s had been in German hands and widespread use for over four years, so it isn't clear why a flight of one of these would require special clearance. Is it that they had been retained in flying schools in France so a flight of one of these in German airspace would be something special?

That it is specifically referred to as a Harvard, and precisely as a Mk.IIB (Canadian built) at that, also seems odd. Could it actually be a captured example - or is that too odd, given the date? Or perhaps did the Luftwaffe actually refer to all their NAA trainer types as Harvards?

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Thanks Nick a very interesting intercept
The end location of Oranienburg and reference to a captured Lightning to me clearly indicates 2./Vers.Verb.Ob.d.Lw. All known records indicate that this unit always referred to a Harvard and no other name was used. In their book on this Unit Smith & Creek say that it was in November 1944 that a captured example was acquired (confusingly they use a photo of a NAA64 - DR+XD - which was an ex-French example from mid 1940) Clearly this new information puts the time-line a few months earlier. I do not have any specific data on the use of the Harvard by the Allies after D Day but 6 weeks had passed so could one example used by a Transport/Reconnaisance/General Staff Unit have gone astray and landed in German held territory, hence the URGENT transfer radio traffic from France to Germany. Any further info available would be most grateful - Thanks

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

My guess is because in July 1944 France was full of German Flak gunners who were condtioned to fire at anything unusual. So I interpret this as a wise flight safety precaution in a tense situation.

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Hey guys...

It is NAA-64 Serial 64-2036. Some remains were found near the eastern front...

Mike

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Can you give me anymore information about where - when and what was found?
As far as I know the French Armee de i'Air order for 200 aircraft started from the Serial Number 64-2033. Your SN would make this the 4th aircraft within the order. If (as in the usual case) they would follow on from the French Serial numbers. This case being the 4th aircraft was later captured by the Germans from mid 1940

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

From the losses available to me for schools in France, the serials used by Lufwaffe for captured aircraft, both French and Italian, are the ones existing before capture (for example, D 520 n° 578 became D 520 WNr 578 and Ca148 MM61151 became WNr 61151).

A quick check of the articles about Luftwaffe flying schools losses in France from January to March 1944 found the following NAA losses:
02 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 132
06 Jan 1944; NAA 57 WNr 137
08 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 80
15 Jan 1944: NAA 57 WNr 29
29 Jan 1944: NAA 64 WNr 46
05 Feb 1944: NAA 57 WNr 195
10 Feb 1944: NAA 57 WNr 31, 44, 61, 67, 141
23 Mar 1944: NAA 57 WNr 157

Comparison with the accident lis of French airforce in 1939-1940
29 Oct 1939: NAA 57P2 N°70
03 Nov 1939: NAA 57P2 N°04
14 Jan 1940: NAA 57P2 N°06
25 Jan 1940: NAA 57P2 N°16 & N°18
26 Feb 1940: NAA 57P2 N°9
07 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°32
08 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°07
09 Mar 1940: NAA 57P2 N°26 & N°43
02 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°134
03 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°180
06 Apr 1940: NAA 57P2 N°100
And so on

So maybe you can search the relation between the US serial or construcor number and the French serial. It might be in US or French documents. Then the Luftwaffe WNr will be equal to the French number.

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

I am not sure the French serial will follow the constructor number or if they will be given in reception order.

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Thanks Laurent
The NAA 57 No 157 I have listed as with 2./JG107 crashing near Toul with 80% damage but the date is 23.03.43 and not 1944. Can you please confirm your date or is mine a mistake? - Thanks
Also any chance of giving the details of location and damage of the French Accidents as I have several being captured later by the Germans - Thanks

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

One can of course never be sure, but I believe the aircraft were painted in French markings already in USA, and if NA didn't screw things up, there is a good chance they actually came into France in c/n vs Adl'A s/n (No) order

Also thanks for the loss details Laurent. Very much appreciated!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

For the NAA 57, my source is an article in the magazine Avions n°88 (July 2000) by C Archambault and P Lapierre about the losses of non operational units of Luftwaffe in France in March 1944. The associated loss list says that on 23 March Uffz Albert Roos of JG 107 was killed and his NAA 57 WNr 157 destroyed a 80% in a crash near Toul.
The Volksbund database has 14 Albert Roos, including none in March 1943 and one on 23 March 1944 who died near Toul.
So I guess the 1944 date is correct.

As for the French losses in 1939-1940, I took them from a PDF compiled by the French Historical service. AFAIK it is no more available on its website bu is in a genealogical website here:
https://genealomaniac.fr/rechercher/..._pub_00000363/
(I checked the file is the same than the one I downloaded in 2016).
This file will give you date, location, aircraft type, serial number, and the name of the pilot/crew... but nothing about the fate of crew and of aircraft. I checked a part of these files in the archives years ago, and some files are for incidents when aircraft got lost and landed almost withou damage. Also here was no clear code for wrecked aircraft, and some time it is unclear if the aircraft was repaired or not. I only took notes then from aircraft clearly destroyed or for which there was at least one fatality, so can provide if I dig into my papers some details for grave accidents, but will have nothing on other (basically the ones where the repaired aircraft will be used later by the Luftwaffe).

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Tom, I have:

N.A.A. 57, 157, Roos, Uffz. Albert, , , , JG 107, , , , , 23-Mar-44, Killed in crash due to pilot error., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.97, , bei Toul, 80%, H, , ,

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

Thanks Laurent & Jim
Much appreciated Loss List of French Types. Just a quick glance there are many unusual items with no makers name but just Type ??? Were these prototypes?
Thanks both of you for confirming the NAA57 loss date as 1944. easy as typos creep in.

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

I cannot... :(

Main data plate was found, along with other insignificant parts. Data plate clearly shows the serial number. Found somewhere in Poland.

That is all I know.

Mike

Re: Luftwaffe Captured NAA-64 Serial Numbers?
 

From my own experiences with these reports, they are just inventories of the archives box listing accident reports (1st colonne, carton, ex 2B142 covers reports from 1st December 1939 to 15 January 1940).
These reports cover all territory controlled by France, France itself and its colonies in Africa and Indochina. Most are rather complete, but some contain only one telegram from some local responsable saying an aircraft crashed there, sometimes with fatalities... but no type, no name, etc... Other are barely readable and so on....

So my humble opinion is that this file (and the corresponding file for 1943-1945) are listing all losses still listed in the archives, not all that occured. Still it is more or less complete for metropolitan France in 1939-1940, it rather in colonies that there is a lack a data sometimes. ALso some reports concern foreign aircraft (some RAF ones) or Aeronavale ones (the French Fleet Air Arm), but are very rare and only a very small part of such crashes in French territory.

Just to say that entries without maker name can be divided in three categories:
_ incomplete short loss reports
_ ground accidents or Armée de l'Air people killed in civilian aircraft (one case for the latter I know)
_ balloons (technically depending of the Army, so probably with the same low percentage of reports than Aéronavale but I am far from being a specialist)