Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hello/Bonjour,

The archives of the "Musee de Bretagne" (Museum of Brittany) at Rennes, France hold some pictures of German airplanes. It is possible to know more about this Bf-109?
Link: http://www.collections.musee-bretagn...11/FLMjo245663 It bears marks of Geschwader Adjutant on the engine cowling as well as the emblem of III./JG 27. An airplane probably belly-landed in France, in Brittany? I thank you beforehand.

All the best,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hi

thanks for the link of this http://www.collections.musee-bretagne.fr/

Read or Stab I./JG1 or Stab III./JG27 if after 8/7/1940

Bertrand

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Bonjour,

That aircraft looks like Westfeldzug (i.e., 10 May - 24 June 1940) casualty, so it would be a Stab I./JG 1 aircraft lost somewhere in France.

However, I believe that the autonomous Jagdgruppe was nowhere near Brittany during the campaign.

If so, for Brittany specifically, it would be an unrelated period photo, which somehow found its way to the Musee de Bretagne collection.


Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

If museum hv the negativ, Wn should be readable ...nd it seems that the pilot hv been wounded ..


Rémi

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hi, Bonjour,

Thank you all for these details and suggestions. I will contact the Museum to see if they hold the negative - as you are right RT, the Werk-Nummer would make the job easier.

All the best,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hi,

In J.Prien Die Jagdfliegerverbände Part 3 dealing with the battle of France there is a picture of the same machine parked on the a/f of Charleville. Sadly the tail is not visible, So no luck either with the Werke-nr. I./JG 1 was bases at Charleville between 17 and 22 mai. No mention in the loss list too. So the pilot survived the crash-landing unharmed.
Kind regards,

Dirk

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

seems to have two or three claims on the rudder

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hello/Bonjour,

The picture you are talking about (... DDT) is also in the book of Mr Erik Mombeek "JG 1 Oesau". If we consider that it is a Bf-109 E of Stab I./JG 1 and that we are in the period before or after the French Campaign, a loss mentioned in the book of Mr. Mombeek could match:

30.8.1940
Stab I./JG 1
Bf-109 E4
Werk-Nr. 1618
Damaged 40%
Belly landing, Guines

By the way, the information card on the Museum's website indicates that the document (the Bf-109 picture) is a paper document, so there is likely no negative held by the Museum.

All the best,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

I.,/JG 1 had become III./JG 27 on 5 July 1940 and my view is this is a Battle of France not Battle of Britain casualty and I can see no link with Brittany. No Stab I./JG 1 losses or incidents are listed for the period 10 May-25 June. It does look as if there are 3 victory bars on the tail so the only member of the Stab with such a score was Oblt Erhard Braune, getting No 3 on 5 June and No 4 the day after

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hello/Bonjour,

Merci Chris, interesting. At the bottom of the photo, in the margin, there is a handwritten note. I contacted the Museum via their contact form to see if they could tell me what is written. Let's see if they answer.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hi/Bonjour,

The Museum answered. Unfortunately, they only have a paper-picture, which is cut off at the bottom, so there is no way to read completely what is written.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

This loss of 19-May-40 is also worth considering.

From Peter Cornwell's Battle of France, Then and Now p.326:
"I./JG1 Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3. Wrecked in forced-landing at St Quentin due to petrol failure. Pilot believed unhurt. Aircraft a write-off.
Confirmed in the table at Prien+Stemmer+Rodeike+Bock: Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 3 p.81 as 75% damaged but the entry above is rather more revealing.

I./JG 1 had only transferred forward from Gymnich near Cologne in the Rhineland to Charleville on the evening of 16th May. Charleville lies at the very edge of the featureless, rolling but almost-flat-as-a-pancake plain stretching from the Ardennes to the French coast. St Quentin sits in the middle part of that plain. Not easy to find your way in a single-seater when you are unfamiliar with such terrain. Either returning alone from a combat mission or the Rottenflieger happened to have been able to use less fuel. Very embarrassing given that the aircraft's back is well and truly broken, but somewhat understandable as to the getting lost.

So circumstantially this looks a reasonably good fit.

The ambulance was not for the pilot. The aircraft has been photographed in the middle of being dismantled, and it is clearly apparent that the wing cannon and the cowling machine guns have already been recovered.

The presence of the ambulance is probably only precautionary; a SOP at every recovery where the aircraft was know to be fitted with 'live' armament. Given the relaxed postures of the individuals in this photo, it probably does not indicate that there had been an accident during removal of the armament and ammunition.

The WNr. is unreadable in this reproduction but there is plentiful evidence of I./JG 1 having on charge in this period multiple examples of Bf 109 E-3s marked in this identical style from the large Erla block W.Nr. 1074 to 1574. The distinctive marking of the Rotring oil filler cap on these aircraft is also clearly apparent here. (Photos in PSRB: Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 3 especially pp.82/5.)

[The Messerschmitt Änderungs Anweisungen Übersicht confirms the sub-type as E-3; Erla E-4s only began with WNr. 1575.]

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

Hello/Bonjour INM@RLM,

Very interesting answer with this crossing of information. A big thank you to you for your research to make (or to try) this photography "speak".

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: Bf-109 to identify - III./JG 27
 

A pleasure. Picqued my interest.

One other point occurs. On this machine the fuselage Trennlinie for the upper surface colours is very high; just a narrow strip of darker shades down the spine of the aircraft.
In this same period other I./JG 1 aircraft have a noticeably lower Trennlinie that starts from the level of the bottom ledge of the cockpit canopy. Both finishes are evident in photos of the unit's aircraft during their brief sojourn at Charleville, with the majority of those seen having the higher dividing line. (See PSRB Teil 3 pp.78/80.)
Others will have studied this more closely, but the higher Trennlinie seems to have been superseded by the lower version (e.g WNr. 1559, Teil 3 pp.78/80) with that in turn being replaced by a division midway between the two earlier forms, when mottling of the fuselage sides was added at the manufacturer (e.g. WNr. 1609 dated in Aug-40 at Carquebut, Teil 4/I, p.412 top). On the surviving evidence then the high Trennlinie on this aircraft is more suggestive of a May date than one in August.

This photo is as much to do with Brittany as the three photos of a Go 145 hanging down the side of a building in Orléans. (Search the Musée site for Avion Allemands.) These have simply been rescued from photo albums, and the scribbles along the bottom border here are clearly remnants of the owner's handwritten captions in his album.