325th FG vs Ju-52
 

30/01/44: Villaorba/Udine

11 Ju-52 claimed shot down (including 4 by Herschell Green and 3 by Cecil O.Dean).
How much in reality and what unit?
michel

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

5 from 5./TG 2 (WNr. 3233 8T+CP, 4046 8T+DP, 6650 8T+HN, 7268 8T+CN and 10148 8T+BP).

Matti

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

thank you!

Matti,a subsidiary question:Herschell Green also claimed a Do-217....really? or rather one Bf.110?.... German Cant Z.1007?(they were present in the north )
michel

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

A Do 217 is possible but unlikely. III./KG 100 did make use of Northern Italian airfields during operations against Anzio-Nettuno but Jean-Louis Roba's book records no loss on 30 January.

Here are some ULTRA messages from January 1944 that may be relevant:

(VL 5179) Orders of 30th: I./KG 76 to Villaorba, arrival expected 30th. Unspecified elements of KG 30 to Bergamo. Three of II. and one of Stab/KG 100 arrived Bergamo from Istres, midday/30th.

(serial no. ?) Orders of 30th: I./KG 76 to Villaorba, arrival expected 30th. Unspecified elements of KG 30 to Bergamo. Three of II. and one of Stab/KG 100 arrived Bergamo from Istres, midday/30th.

(VL5210) Substitute for VL 5179: I./KG 76 being sent by C-in-C GAF to Villaorba with key personnel. Arrival expected 30th (comment: last located north Germany). KG 30 (comment: not known how much) transferring to Bergamo according to KG 76 on 20th. Three of II. and one of Stab/KG 100 arrived Bergamo-South midday/30th.

(VL 5221) In raids on Villaorba at 10.45 and 11.20 by B-17s and B-24s numerous aircraft damaged by splinters.

(VL 5285) Following left Villaorba for Bergamo–South (compare Vl 5210): 12 Ju 88 of KG 30 (being six of I. Gruppe and six of II. Gruppe) 23.30/30–10.00/31.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

I have no Do 217s lost 30 Jan 44

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

I have only this:
1944-01-30, 2./LG 1, Ju 88 A-4, 3892, L1+GL, Terco, 30 km südlich Udine
Flugzeugführer Uffz Bogner, Franz, +
Kampfbeobachter Obgfr Dunga, Werner, +
Bordfunker Fw Dörr, Jacob, +
1.Wart Uffz Eulenberg, Albert, +
Prüfmstr Zimmermann, Walter, +
Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.

No Do 217, Bf 110 or Cant Z.1007.

Matti

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

I take if that Prüfmstr stands for Prüfmeister?

What was his job on this flight? I suppose he was some kind of inspector/controller of something, but it feels odd to have him onboard a flight so close to the battlefront. Did every unit have one or more like him?
Was he actually a pilot or did he check out on other things?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Villaorba is about 475 km from Anzio-Nettuno, so not really "close to the battlefront".

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

The LG 1 book says this was a Prüfflug which I believe was a test flight and it fell to long range fighters crashing north of Grado . I thought a Prüfmeister was a kind if civil servant allowed to wear service uniform with a rank from Fw to Major , similar status to the weather inspectors .

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Good point Nick

But still close enough to get shot down.
What did he do that an ordinary crew could not accomplish?
Was it usual or unusual to have such an individual within a combat unit?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

By January 1944 there were few places in German-held Western Europe that Allied aircraft could not reach and certainly none in Italy.

As Brian said, this was a Prüfflug, so taking the Prüfmeister along makes sense — He'd probably have to sign off the aircraft as serviceable.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Lots about the task of a Prüfmeister here: https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/i...der-luftwaffe/

In German.

Regards,
Leendert

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Quite right Nick

I basically tried to avoid a lengthy discussion of what a front line ment in 1944.
The main point I am trying to make is why a Prüfmeister was needed in a front line unit! I can see a certain merit to have one as an intermediate between a manufacturer and the client (Luftwaffe or others)
Not even in peacetime, in Sweden, did we find a need for such an individual.
The proofing flights (at least post war) were made by regular crews, quite capable of checking the things needed to be checked and state if the aircraft was serviceable or not.

Sorry Leendert but your site does not answer the pertinent question.
Was this individual a "one off" or were the Prüfmeisters found everywhere?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

"His" Do-217 is very mysterious...an identification error?..but with what?,there are not many two-tailed planes.

I am looking for the italian ANR..but very little information
michel

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

To tell the truth I came across this thread almost by chance while I was looking for information about two Savoia Marchetti SM 82 of 9./TG1 (ex MM 61527 and ex MM 61528) that were shot down during the air battle of 30 January 1944 in the Udine area or even the next day.

From some German documents, it appears instead that the date was 31 January 1944. The mission report of the 325th FG also mentions 3 SM 82 shot down on 31 January 1944 by Lts. Hoffmann, Dunkin and Rynne.
The strange thing is that, while the German documents cited, some cards showing the personal data of the deceased and two pages of the register of the losses of 9./TG1, report the day 31 as the date of the deaths, but all the Italian documents, the “Verbale dei Carabinieri”, the report of the firefighters brigade and the report of the parish priest of the country, all give the date of January 30th. In the crash, one of the planes hit a house, demolishing it and causing the death of the two elderly people who lived there.
I initially thought that among the 11 Ju 52 presumably shot down by the 325th FG, the two SM 82s, perhaps had been misidentified, in the heat of the fight, as Ju 52s, but I had some doubts since the silhouettes of the two planes are completely different.
Among other things, three SM 82, clearly identified, appear in the claims of the day after.
At the moment I have not reached a certain conclusion and I do not understand who was wrong, if the Germans and the Americans or if, instead, the Italians.

However, the reason for this post is another.

For more than ten years I have been collecting data to reconstruct all the phases of the air battle in the area of ​​Udine area on January 30, 1944.
There were many losses, most suffered by the Luftwaffe, and to date, I am trying to find the various crash points.
It is therefore with great surprise that I discovered that among the planes shot down that day there was also a Ju 88. Of course, among the 325th FG claims there are also two Ju 88s, one claimed by Col. Baseler and another by Lt. Dorety, but I always thought it might have been a misidentification.

I live in a village over which the battle had taken place and by now I thought I knew the exact, or at least probable, location of a lot of crash points but in the many interviews done years ago with eyewitnesses of the time I had only heard of B-24s , B17s and German, Italian or American single-engine fighters, no one (or maybe just one, but vaguely) has ever mentioned a twin-engined aircraft.

Now, in the post by Matti Salonen of November 29, 2021, I find the data of this Ju 88 of 2./LG1.

From a subsequent verification I found the same data also on page. 517 of “A History of the Mediterranean Air War” Vol. 4. The latter says also that the plane was shot down, during a transfer flight, north of Grado.

Matti Salonen instead cites Terco (actually Terzo) 30 km south of Udine. Anyway the position is the same as Terzo is north of Grado and about 30 km south of Udine.
I then remembered that one of the old men I had interviewed, unfortunately now deceased, had spoken vaguely of a two-engine plane that had crashed near Terzo, in the countryside east of the village, on that date.

Since a Bf 109 of 6./JG 53 had also crashed inside the village on January 30, 1944, I thought that the old man had confused memories about the crash point and the two engines. It would seem instead that he was right and today I regret not having asked him to accompany me on the spot.

After making sure that the location and date matched, I tried to find more information about the plane, the unit and the crew and here I had other surprises.
None of the crew members appear to be present either in the Kracker Luftwaffe Archive database, nor on the Aircrew Remembrance Society website, nor the names resultied from an Internet search.

Looking for the Vbkz L1-Gl I found, again in Aircrew Rem Soc., that it belonged to a Ju 88A-4/Trop, Verk n. 140284 of IV/LG1, shot down north of Tobruk on 25 October 1942. The pilot, Uffz Wolfgang Kramar and all the rest of the crew are still MIA. No results also in the search for Wolfgang Kramar.

I then consulted the Junkers Production List doing a search for the Werk no. 3892.This should correspond to a Ju 88A-4 and the caption says: “LUFTWAFFE, ?? + ??, ??. ??. ?? to Jul. 43, damaged by undercarriage failure on take off from Sechtschinskaja while with KG51."

Last question.
If, as Mediterranean Air War says, the aircraft was shot down on a transfer flight, where was it going when it found itself in the middle of an air battle?
The 2./LG1 at the end of January 1944 was based in Varel in Lower Saxony and then in northern Germany, so a little too far from the Udine area even for a daily transfer flight.
It could also be that the plane was being transferred to the III Gruppe which was based in Aviano, but if that were the case, it certainly had chosen the wrong date and destination for that flight.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Freddy

Feels to me that the date 31 Jan 1944 is correct.
I don't believe both the Luftwaffe and the USAAF have made a date mistake.

With regard to 2./LG 1 I have no specific base for it on the date in question, but according to Peter Taghon
the Gruppe itself (I./LG 1) was based at Aviano between 23 Jan and 10 March 1944. As far as I can see
he doesn't mention Varel at any time for the whole Geschwader.
I./LG 1 had abandoned Eleusis in Greece for Italy.
The aircraft itself was on a "Werkstattflug" which I take meaning a testflight, rather than transit flight, made
after some repairs, hence our "Prüfmeister" onboard.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Hello,


in the report "Fifteenth Air Force - Counter Air Operation of 30 and 31 January 1944, Villaorba - Maniago - Lavariano - Udine - Aviano - Klagenfurt" it's mentioned that:

...
Execution

30th January 1944
Flying up the center of the ADRIATIC at altitudes less than 50 feet, 60 P-47's of the 325th Fighter Group reached the VILLAORBA area 10/11 minutes before the first waves of heavy bombers and escort arrived the assigned targets. Fifty to sixty enemy aircraft including Me 109's, Fw 190's, Ma 202's, Ju 52's, Ju 88's, Hs 126's and Fi 156's were in the main caught completely by surprise. The planes that were airborne by the time the P-47's arrived had gained altitude, others were still taxiing and taking-off and the resistance encountered lacked organization both in numbers and tactics. Obvious disorganization in the enemy foghter opposition during this period is ample testimony to the success of the plan. That transport, bombers, and miscellaneous aircraft were encountered is further evidence of the surprise achieved, for these planes were apparently attempting to reach alternate landing grounds and dispersal areas for safety.
In the aerial feee-for-all which followed 36 enemy aircraft, including 14 Me 109's, 5 Ma 202's and 11 Ju 88's were destroyed, 8 enemy fighters were claimed as probably destroyed.
....
Villaorba Landing Ground
52 aircraft were present at the time of the 30 January attack. Of this total one Ju 88 was destroyed, while 20 Ju 88's and 11 single engine fighters were destroyed or damaged.
...
Lavariano Landing Ground
As a result of the 30 January attack, 1 Ju 88, 1 FW 58, 1 W34, 2 Me 110's and 10 single engine fighters, a total of 15 aircraft, were either destroyed or damaged.


And from another allied document it's mentioned that:


VILLAORBA AIRDROME - ATTACK OF 30th JANUARY
1. Attack

...

Claims by fighters - (P-47) 46:6:0 destroyed including:
13 Me109
1 Fw190
11 Ju-52
16 Ma-202
2 Ju-88
1 Do-217
1 Hs-126
1 Fi-156
....
3. Results

Photographs of the same day show 18 Ju-88 and 7 single engine fighters as probably destroyed or damaged.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

That is/was the key success of our researches, Freddy.

Bye/ciao from Belgium

Nicola

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Hi Nicholas, I'm happy to hear from you again after a couple of years of being stopped due to Covid.
In one of the next few weeks I should meet an elder from Terzo d'Aquileia who, at least so it would seem, knows of another crash site, but from what I understand it should be of a Bf 109 and to the southwest of the village. I'm just waiting for him to come back from vacation then we'll go and see.
I still hope it is the c/p of the Ju 88.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Hello,
Prüfmeister are Technical Specialists ,not Soldiers!!(a kind of US T-4), in the Luftwaffe this is like an Oberfeldwebel.
There duties handle all kind of Aircraft-Ammunition like Bombs, MG & Cannon-Ammo etc. His rang shows a green collarpatch with one silver sixpoint star and
silver Oaksleave. The rangboard look like that for German senior Police NCO but in different colours.
h.

Re: 325th FG vs Ju-52
 

Hi Tanzebau, I'm sorry to reply late to your post but I had to collect and sort out some data regarding losses and claims of all the parties involved in the battle of January 30, 1944 in the Udine area.
These are data I have collected from various American, German and Italian documents over the last 25 years and which have allowed me to rebuild, as clearly and completely as possible, the events of that Sunday of January 1944.
Unfortunately, it is not a complete and exhaustive picture and still today new information are emerging, as in this case regarding the Ju 88 shot down at Terzo d’Aquileia.
A fairly up-to-date summary could be found in my article "The "Flying Fortress"of Campolongo and the events of January 30, 1944" which I wrote, in Italian, for a magazine of historical studies, but was then also translated into English for the 449th BG Association.
Later I wrote a book, this one only in Italian, entitled "Sinner's Dream" which also talks about the same aerial battle but with more details.
Both publications mainly talk about the story of two single B-24s of the 449th BG, but are also examined the facts and causes that led to the shooting down of those aircraft.
Clearly, given the size of the PDF files and the restrictions of the forum, it is impossible for me to attach them but, upon request, I could make them available for download from my Google Drive.

From the data I have collected, the (partial) situation of the losses and claims of January 30, 1944 could be the following:

Luftwaffe losses. Note: It should be remembered that the Luftwaffe recorded with aircraft and pilot data only cases in which those pilots were killed or injured in air combat. Little or nothing can easily be found regarding aircraft shot down but whose pilot survived or those destroyed on the ground. For each individual unit are available the rteports "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen" (Aircraft inventory and movement report) that show in columns: availability and acquisition or transfer of aircraft.
Then there are other columns that show the total losses and the causes, e.g. accidents, war causes (in air battle or destroyed on the ground) or even transfers to other units.
Unfortunately, however, the totals are provided per month and not per a single date.
This does not allow, therefore, to understand how many of those aircraft had been lost on a particular date but we must try to extrapolate the data through cross-checks on various other documents.

The 77 Jagdgeschwader, in January 1944, had lost, due to war causes, 14 Bf 109s, 7 of which by the I Group, based in Lavariano, Udine, and 7 in other parts of central and southern Italy.
Of the 7 lost in the Udine area, only 2 are documented with the name of MIA or KIA pilots.
We know that 2 other Bf 109s had been shot down but the pilots bailed out safely. 3 other planes had been destroyed on the ground by bombs during landing.
Total losses 7.
The 53 JG, in January, had lost 65 Bf 109s due to war causes, of which 43 lost from the I and II groups, based respectively in Maniago (Udine area) and in Wien-Seyring (Austria).
Both Groups had participated in the battle on January 30th. The remaining 22 were part of the III Gruppe which operated in central Italy.
Of the 43 lost in January 1944, 5 Bf 109s of the I group and 3 of the II group are documented because of the loss or injury of the pilots (plus one that had made an emergency landing but was only damaged).
Total losses 43.
The 1st Fighter Group of the Italian A.N.R. was based in Udine Campoformido. On 30 January this unit had lost 2 Macchi MC 205 in aerial combat plus 1 due to pilot error during a dogfight.
On the ground it had had 2 aircraft destroyed and 24 damaged. Total losses 5.
The I./Kampfgeschwader 76, based in Villaorba, Udine, had lost 4 Ju 88A-4 on the ground in January 1944.
Total losses 4.
The Lehrgeschwader 1 was based in Aviano (Udine) with the Stab, the I and III groups.
On January 30, the Stab suffered no losses, the I group had lost 2 Ju 88A-4 of which at least 1 in air combat and 1 on the ground and, finally, the III group had lost 5 Ju 88A-4 on the ground during the bombing.
Total losses 5.
The 5./TG 2, in January 1944, he had lost 5 Ju 52 in total, as we saw in the post by Matti Salonen.
I have not found other data available regarding other transport units that could have been present in the Udine area on the date of the battle.
Total losses not available.

To these should be added: 1 Fieseler Fi 156 Storch and 1 Henschel Hs 126, used as liaison aircraft. Finally there would be a Dornier Do 217 claimed by Capt. Herschel Green which remains a kind of mystery. None of these aircraft, in fact, would appear to have been present in the Udine area. Regarding the identification, it is somewhat strange that Green got confused also because the Dornier 217 has a double vertical tail and few other German planes of the same size had it. However, having examined the various types of German and Italian twin-engine and two-tailed airplanes possibly present in the Udine area, excluding the Do 17 and Do 217 which, as we have seen, operated in very distant areas of Italy, could be considered the Siebel Si 204 which was shorter than the Do 217 but had almost the same wingspan. The Si 204 was used not only as a light transport and training aircraft but also as a liaison aircraft in the same way as the Fieseler 156 and the HS 126. For example, it was used by the Füg 1 (Flugzeugüberführungsgeschwader) (delivery wing of the Luftwaffe) Gruppe Süd based in Erding, as a shuttle plane for transporting crews. Its presence in the Udine area may therefore have been accidental following a transport of personnel.
Total losses 2, maybe 3.

USAAF losses:
The 449th BG, 318th BS had lost 3 B-24s (Serials 41-28605; 42-07730 and 41-29217) with 19 KIA, 7 MIA and 6 POW.
2nd BG, 49th BS had lost 1 B-17 s/n 41-24395 with 5 KIA and 5 POW.
The 301st BG, 353rd BS had lost 1 B-17 s/n 42-31424 with 2 KIA, 7 POW and 1 EVD.
Total bombers losses: 5

The 325th FG, 318th FS had lost 2 P-47s (Serials 42-75967 and 42-75982) with 1 MIA and 1 POW respectively.
The 82nd FG, 97th FS, had lost 1 P-38 s / n 42-13173, Maj Charles L. Spencer MIA.
Total fighter losses: 3

Claims. Note: The declared numbers, surely, are exaggerated for all units of the Luftwaffe, of the A.N.R and also of the USAAF.

Luftwaffe claims:
The 77 JG claimed 4 B-24s, 4 B-17s and 1 P-47.
The 53 JG claimed 5 B-24s, 1 B-17s and 2 P-38s.
The 1st Fighter Group of the A.N.R. (It) claimed 1 B-24 and 4 P-47s.

USAAF claims: Note: among the claims there are some concerning some Focke Wulf Fw 190 but these are wrong identifications of Bf 109s. No aircraft of this type had, in fact, participated in the battle of 30 January 1944. Regarding the Italian fighters, they are all identified as MC 202 but, in reality, they were all Macchi MC 205s which had a very similar appearance. Furthermore, among the 82nd FG claims there is a ME 210 (probable) but even in this case no Me 210 was in sky that day. The same could be said for the Do 217 claimed by H. Green of 325th FG.

The 14th FG, 48th FS (P-38s) claimed 1 Fw 190 (?).
The 82nd FG, 95th and 97th FSs (P-38s) claimed 5 Bf 109s shot down plus 4 probable, 1 Fw 190 (?) shot down plus 1 probable and 1 Me 210 (?) Probable.
For a total of 6 planes shot down plus 6 probable.
The 325th FG, HQ, 317th, 318th and 319th FSs (P-47s) claimed 1 Fw 190 (?), 13 Bf 109s plus 2 probable, 8 MC 202s (Mc 205) plus 3 probable, 9 Ju-52s, 2 Ju 88s, 1 Do 217 (?), 1 Hs 126 and 1 Fieseler Fi 156 Storch. For a total of 25 planes shot down plus 5 probable.
The 449th Bg gunners claimed 6 Bf 109s shot down, plus 1 probable and 2 damaged.
The 450th BG gunners claimed 1 Bf 109 and 1 unidentified a/c (prob. a MC 202).
The 2nd BG gunners claimed 5 Bf 109s plus 1 probable and 1 Fw 190 (?) plus 1 probable.
For the 301st, 97th and 99th BGs I did not find the claims of the gunners.
For a total (incomplete) of 8 planes shot down by bombers plus 3 probable and 2 damaged.


Sorry for my rough english