ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Good morning to all members.

Am trying to match a USAF rec-tac claim on the 18th August 1944 near Le Puy (which I assume may be Le-Puy-en-Velay, to the WSW of Saint-Etienne).

Is there a record that matches such loss? Which unit and crew? The Ju 88 blew up, by the way, after the attack of the US recon pilot.

A.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

II./LG 1 recorded a couple of losses in France on that day. Could either be the machine you're looking for?

Ju 88S-3, 330850, Schmiechen, FhjUffz. Erwin, , II., 4., LG 1, , L1+MM, , , 18-Aug-44, KIA due to Luftkampf with enemy nightfighter. Bs also KIA, B WIA., , Invasionsraum, Taghon, LG 1, II, p.525, , Raum Falaise, 100%, F, B Ofhr. Gerhard Puhrsch, Bf Uffz. Hans Dörfler & Bs Uffz. Wilhelm Leis, ,
Ju 88S-3, 330925, n.n., , II., 6., LG 1, , L1+IP, NN+YY, , 18-Aug-44, Lost, cause unknown., Jumo A213A-1 engines., Invasionsraum, Taghon, LG 1, II, p.525; PRO: AIR40/1889 via Lw Circle #3, p.3, LEMB, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F, , , Henschel-Schönefeld

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Hello Jim.

I was not aware of those two losses from LG 1, since I do not have Taghon's work/book. THANK YOU for sharing those with us.

I guess (but may be wrong) that those two LG 1 losses were more related to Allied night-fighters over the Invasion Front as the book do says.

Am looking for a DAYLIGHT loss for a Luftwaffe machine on the South / South-East part of France. This machine was claimed by a 111th TRS (flying probably a P-51C or F-6A Mustang) airman near "Le Puy", which I assumed was near Saint-Etienne.

There could be, however "problems in identifying the Luftwaffe machine" which was claimed destroyed (exploded in mid air) as a Ju 88. It may also be a former "French Air Force" twin-engined machine.

Any help in ID this claim is most welcomed.

Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

If you mean the claim by 1/Lt. Robert L. Nicholson of 111th TRS, Frank Olynyk gives the location as "SE Oregon". I take this to be a muscle-memory American typo for the French commune of Orgon in the Bouches-du-Rhône département, map ref. 43°47′29″N, 5°02′20″E.

(Another, more extreme typo possibility might be Orange, which had two active airfields at the time).

I don't see any impossible problem with it being a Ju 88, although not one I can identify. The Allied landings in Provence three days earlier had throughly stirred things up and there was a lot of relocation and evacuation or aircraft going on. The German retreat from the region got underway the next day.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Hello Nick,

Thank you very much for your answer and nice message.

No, it is not 1st/Lt Nicholson's claim am looking after, but rather 1st/Lt William R. Hornsby Junior who apparently shot down a Ju 88 and had to bail out very soon after (I am not sure, but he may have flown amongst the debris of the machine he shot down).

The machine was claimed (it seems so) near Le Puy, so I assumed it would be the town near Saint-Etienne (Central France).

Do you, by chance do have any information about Hornsby's claim?

Most humbly yours,
Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

If the 111th TRS was involved then I agree that it's very likely to be Le Puy-en-Velay (Haute-Loire).

I don't have anything about a claim by Hornsby. Is it certain he was with the 111th TRS?

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Nick, good night.
Thank you for confirming that it is very likely Le-Puy-en-Velay that may be the correct place.

I confirm that on page 98 of this file (USAF Historical Study 85) we do have the credit for an aerial victory to 1/Lt William R. Hornsby Jr. (111th Rec Sqdn) on the 18th August 1944. See page 98

https://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/...090601-121.pdf

Apparently it was a Junkers 88....but as often in aerial combat, it could have been another LW twin-engined machine...this is what I am trying to figure out. What did he shot down that day??

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

salut Adriano,
on the document itself it is page 91. (bottom of the page) not 98.

I understand that Hornsby was credited with 4 victories (is this correct?)
in this case, how explain that there are only 2 claims on this document (one on 27 5 44 and one on 18 8 44) and not 4?

Ciao
Gilles

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Salut Gilles!

Officially he was only credited with 2 victories...but he claimed 4....but am not sure if those other two were on the ground or "aerial".

I tried to find any II/KG 26 "NVM" for this date, but was unlucky.
I thought initially that it could also be a French machine "borrowed" by the LW, which was not the case....the problem is that his wingman's victory was recorded at 08:00hs AM...near Orgon...which I believe could be "Orion De L'Adreyt" which fits more to the "picture", some 70 km to the East of Le Puy and close to Valence...the former base of II/KG 26....

Maybe we got a clue after the 20th December....let's cross fingers!

Salutations,
Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

William Hornsby is indeed credited with two victories in HS85. But he is credited with only one victory in my MTO victory list. For the very good reason that the second claim was on the ground. Per the August 18, 1944 entry in the War Diary of the 111th TRS:

On the early flight Lt. Hornsby led his four ship element down on Valence Airdrome and destroyed one HE-111 on the ground. Lt. Johnson damaged a JU-52 also. Light flak hit the engine of Lt. Hornsby's plane and he baled out near Lyons. He was seen to land safely and run into a farmhouse so we feel sure he is safe.

He is not listed as a POW, but I have not read the Sept. War Diary yet. Wanted to get his message off, hot off the press, so the wild geese can be chased in the correct direction.

More later, maybe.

Hornsby returned Sept 3. In Oct he received a third OLC to the Air Medal for destroying an HE-111K; the citation does not indicate that it was on the ground, which is why it ended up in HS85.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Adriano, the MATAF daily summary that I sent you places Nicholson's Ju 88 claim at "T-1968" which is bT1968 on France Lambert Zone 3 grid. This translates to 43° 46' 46'' N, 5° 03' 30'' E, a point on the banks of the River Durance, 2.75 km SE of the centre of Orgon (Bouches-du-Rhône) and about 125 km south of Valence aerodrome. That's a distance that a P-51 could cover in about 20 minutes at cruising speed.

Frank's MTO list times Nicholson's claim at 0925–1230 (which is, I guess, local time = GMT+2).

ULTRA CX/MSS/T281/39 (file TNA HW 5/566) says:

From KABEK ((KG)) 26 on 18/8:
Low level attack by 4 Mustangs on Valence at 0607/18/8. 1 Ju 88 total loss, 1 gantry crane (total loss. casualties – nil.

NOTE: The time in that message is GMT.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

NICK:
Firstly thank you immensely for your kind answer here...and my humble appologies (and ignorance) for not visualizing the files you enclosed into the message and I had not seen until reading your post above. I then clicked on a link and they appeared to me just seconds ago! So I hadn't seen them previously...hence my mistake and confusion...

We thought initially that Hornsby's machine was hit by "debris" from a Ju 88 he may have claimed "on the air"..but now this is ALL clarified...he claimed a He 111 (we do have images of this wreck) and hit by ground-fire (AA) at Valence...and bailed out near Le Puy....

Understood that Johnson first claimed a Ju 52 on the ground at Valence and then, whilst probably returning (without his leader who had bailed out) he claimed a Ju 88 on the air, near Orgon (now found the town, thanks again Nick!) around 08:00hs.

I shall pass to Gilles and Hornsby's son the MATAF material you sent me Nick! Our GRATITUDE for your kind help and clarification...We had a different story and how things are getting clear and more precise thanks to the kind help of you and Frank.

FRANK: I was just sending you a message when I got your reply here....Our GRATITUDE for kind help.

Most humbly yours,
Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Adriano,

Note that Hornsby's aircraft in August was an F-6A. The 111th TRS does not appear to have received F-6C's until sometime in October.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Thank you, Frank. That expains the daily summary's reference to "30 S6A's of 111 Sqn." — it must be a typo for F-6A's.

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Hello Nick and Frank.

Frank did you get me e-mail?

We believe that the serial may be:
42-103329 ... 42-103778
North American P-51C-5-NT Mustang
42-103415 condemned from enemy action Aug 18, 1944

Some machines from this "Batch" were converted to F-6C...am not sure if this particular machine was...

Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

Correction: "me e-mail" > "my e-mail"

baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

Adriano

Re: ID of Ju 88 lost on 18th August 1944 near Le Puy
 

And according to Gilles Collaveri (who is on the Loop), the machine flown by Lieutanant Hornsby Jr crashed close to Orange..so instead of flying WEST to "Le Puy(en-Velay)" where Hornsby initially thought he had bailed out (according to his son Memorablia), the formation flew South...(maybe trying to reach their own lines)...

So the place is not near Lyons (which may be a Typpo) neither Lions (close to Marseille) either...(some 110 km away).

But thanks to you (Frank and Nick), Gilles and Hornsby Family, we are getting a clear idea now of what happened and what was claimed by whom...

THANK YOU AGAIN for all help and kind support.

Adriano