Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I know reconstructing the air battle over Dieppe is somewhat complicated, but I'm trying to establish the timeline for the destruction of 6./KG2 during the Luftwaffe response to the Allied landing. I believe the below aircraft covers the staffel losses during the day.

Do217E-4 (1217/U5+OP)-Missing. [Four crew killed (Oblt K. Krüger (P), Uffz P. Kleaka (O), Gefr W. Glenzer (R) and Uffz K. Grasse (M)]
Do217E-4 (4221/U5+…)- Force landed near Abbeville airfield after being damaged, and then destroyed by a fire. [One wounded (Ofw F. Kaminsky (M)]
Do217E-4 (5440/U5+…)- Force landed near Dieppe after being damaged by fighters and subsequently destroyed by a fire. [Four wounded (Uffz F. Handel (P), Uffz H. Urner (O), Uffz A. Schotthüfer (R) and Uffz H. Wilmsen (M)]
Do217E-4 (5453/U5+EP)- Missing. [Four crew killed (Uffz R. Blankenburg (P), Uffz H. Schwart (O), Uffz H. Depping (R) and Uffz M. Fiege (M)]
Do217E-4 (5459/U5+GP)- Crashed near Dieppe after being hit by AAA. [Two wounded (Ofw H. Lemsen (O) and Obgfr S. Schirosky (M)) and two killed (Ofw W. Klein (P) and Fw W. Fritsch (R)]

I believe that the staffel launched four aircraft at 11:54, none of which returned, but have also seen reports that they launched at 10:00. So is the 11:54 launch time correct and does anybody know which of the five aircraft was lost at a different time?

Regards,

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Steve: I suppose you have Balke's book? Times are given for the take offs of the losses (this is why I have been very generic with my Do 217 book for this day). Book does mention II./KG 2 a number of times (0942, 1508, 1537, 1603, 1715 hrs) but only mention of 6 Staffel is as you say 1154 take off. Handel was said to be 1508 take off. Overclaiming by the RAF for Do 217s was high....

The RAF claimed to have destroyed 42 Do 217s, probably destroyed another six and damaged another 48 so with so much over-claiming, saying who got whom is hard apart from the loss of the aircraft flown by Oblt Adolf Wolff of 5./KG 40

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that. I'm actually waiting for the delivery of a copy of Balke's KG2 book from AbeBooks to get more details.

I know with the multiple Allied claims, I have no chance of establishing with any degree of certainty who engaged 6.Staffel, I'm just trying to see if I can establish the time of when they were intercepted.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

This, taken from my book, may help more. A crew from 5./KG 2:


"On 19 August 1942 they made their first war flight. They were not then considered to be fully trained and were only employed because of the importance of the operation. In the morning nine aircraft from II./KG 2 took off from Eindhoven to attack shipping off Dieppe. Five of them were lost. In the afternoon a further sortie was made also by nine aircraft, this time including the present POWs. At about 1500 hrs BST this crew located the ships some distance off the French coast; intense Flak was encountered and almost simultaneously their aircraft was attacked by five Spitfires. The bombs were dropped with unobserved results and the pilot managed to get away by taking violent evasive action. During the encounter, hits were sustained in the undercarriage mechanism, ailerons and fuel tank and an emergency landing was made at Evreux. The radio operator [Uffz Arno Salz] claimed one Spitfire shot down.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that. Do you have the identity of the aircraft Uffz Salz was in? I have 5319 from II./KG2 force landing at Turnhout. The only Do217 I had force landing in the Evreux area was 4281 from II./KG40 noted as landing 'near Rouen'.

Interested to hear of a Spitfire claim by KG2, I'd only previously seen the five made by II./KG40.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Ries (Wk Nr 5319) said Evreux but records say Turnhout. Take your pick!

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Ha, thanks, guess we'll never know!

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

This from the book:

Do 217s did file claims for aircraft shot down off Dieppe and in each case they were Spitfires-known claims were two by II./KG 2 while five were recorded by 5./KG 40 at 1402, 1628, 1635, 1638 and 1943 hrs. By means of example as to two losses, Sqn Ldr Wilfred Duncan-Smith of 64 Sqn was shot down by return fire in the process of shooting down at Do 217 20 miles north-west of Dieppe at 1540 hrs, baling out to be rescued by the RN while Plt Off Wilf Smithyman flying a Typhoon of 266 Sqn was last seen chasing three Do 217s between 1400-1505 hrs; his body was later washed ashore in France

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Thanks, I had the five claims by KG40, but hadn't seen any for KG2. Do you have any details on that units the second claim?

Yes S/Ldr Duncan-Smith was definitely shot down by a bomber, but regarding PO Smithyman I've not been able to confirm it. As you say he was last seen chasing Do217's, but his squadron believed he was shot down by a Fw190. Again another question that will probably never be answered.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Sorry no further details on the KG 2 claims

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

No worries, thanks for looking.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Seems that the staffel was destroyed later in the day, than I had thought, Balke gives them a take off time of 11:54.

Does anybody have an idea it how long it would take to fly from Arnhem-Deelen to the Dieppe area? A quick goggle search gives me a distance of about 500km and the speed for a Do217E-4 of 482km/h, so I'm guessing it would take no more than 70 minutes, as the small formations involved wouldn't have required much time to form up. Does this sound right?

Regards

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Too many assumptions-altitude, bomb load, fuel load, route (i.e attacking from sea or land or did they fly indirect due to enemy fighters). You have to also factor in whether they formed up after take off or flew to Dieppe individually in a stream. I do have a series of Luftwaffe reports of who was doing what at what time on this date (which no doubt Ulf Balke also used) but it only occasionally goes below Geschwader level. What times are you interested in and I will see if there is a match?

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Thanks, yes you're right, all a bit too much guess work to arrive at anything remotely accurate.

I've been looking at the whole days fighting, so don't really have a specific time or incident. I'm just trying add more detail to certain parts that to date don't have too much coverage, one of which is the fate of the Luftwaffe bomber crews. Because whilst the experten of JG2 and JG26 were inflicting a heavy toll on the RAF fighters, their bomber colleagues were having a disastrous day. The result of which being that though the Allies lost more than twice as many aircraft as the Luftwaffe, they actually suffered less aircrew losses. The fate of 6./KG2 losing four aircraft on one mission always stood out a particularly grim event.

I've only just started working through the Ulf Balke's KG2 book, but I'd be interested if you could add anything to the actions of the other bomber units involved. I have the following .

KG4 -? sorties
KG40 -15? sorties
KG53 -4 sorties
KG54 -3 sorties
KG77 -? sorties
Ku.FlGr106 -? sorties
Recon -23 sorties
Epro Me210 -3 sorties?? (though this may be an error as I have only ever found one reference in a POW report, to this unit taking part operations)

To allow for the missions flown against the Allied landing force (111?) and those later flown against the UK south coast (50?), I think my above numbers are a bit low.

Regards

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Steve

I am not sure if you are confusing sorties and missions or not.

I recall I have went through KG 2 missions, and they were matching well with Allied engagements. I would have to check my notes for details, though.
Unfortunately, the problem with German operations over Dieppe is almost complete lack of details from the German side, be it documents or accounts. Thus Allied reports are paradoxicaly the best source of German operations, despite overclaim.

I think that some potential resource might be German ASR records or local naval records, I believe they were not as much decimated as the others.


Franek

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Yes, I've been able to reconstruct the Allied air operations for the day, due to the presence of the ORB, but like you say much of the German documentation is lost.

Still I keep looking, as occasionally something new turns up. Only last year my attention was drawn to the German casualty cards held by Fold3, which enabled me to identify all the German losses from the battle, including the casualties caused by the USAAF air raid on Abbeville.

Regards

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I mean that the Allied records combined with the little available German docs should help faithfuly reconstruct German operations. I am aware of no surviving radar logs, but I expect good info to be dispersed around various files. I can explain it to you on email. There are some mysteries, though, like reported Jabo actions or German airmen seen to bail out to sea. I expect not all of them drowned and must have been rescued.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

If I have time I will look tomorrow but will say the Me 210 missions did happen and are listed

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

At least 10 sorties by Me 210 if I remember correctly.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Thanks. Can you confirm if one was damaged? The POW report said three aircraft were available for operations and that during the day one was hit by AAA, but I couldn't confirm this from the Luftwaffe loss list.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

If damaged it was slight and not recorded officially. I hope to go through your list this afternoon

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I have looked through and it is not an easy job as bombing attacks and recce missions are separated but there is then a degree of double accounting. There were 6 Me 210s available which were used throughout the day. There is also mention of I./KG 1 with 15 Ju 88s and just two from II./KG 54. III./KG 53 only has 2 He 111s mentioned but then a He 111 Kampfgruppe had 11 aircraft. III./KG 55, IV./KG 55 and Ekdo 17 get mentioned. Just 3 sorties for KGr 106 are listed. Recce unit was 3.(F)/122 with Ju 88s and Bf 109s. It appears that the Me 210s were operating out of Evreux and they suffered one aircrfat damaged due to a technical problem. I found two claims for I./KG 2 between 1422 and 1742 hrs for a Spitfire and a Curtiss. If I have time later in the week I will look again to try and make more sense

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Hi Chris,

Thanks for all that.

I've got one IV./KG4 loss, could they have been part of the He111 Kampfgruppe?

I'd always wondered about the Me210 units participation, especially as there were no Allied claims/reports of encountering that type during the day, but I guess at high speed a Me210 could be mistaken for a Ju88. Thanks for the confirmation that they were there.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Steve
Most likely they were confused for Ju 88s. There is a number of claims for Jus, which are hard to explain, and as we know, operations of the type were limited.
Franek

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

A lone He 111 P-2, 2925, 5J+FU of 11./KG 4 force landed at Calleville near Rouen due to combat damage with fighters with Uffz Franz Lammich (F) and one wounded. It had taken off at 1458 hrs and made its attack at 1625 hrs

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Yes I've got Uffz Alfred Schmidt (BF) as the other casualty.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I am 80% certain that I saw a Kriegswissenschaftliche-Abt.)/Genst.d.Lw. study on the Dieppe Raid from the German perspective. This was over 30 years ago, so I'm not certain. This was in NARA RG 242, Microcopy T-971 (a.k.a. von Rohden Collection). It might be worthwhile for the interested parties to take a look. These studies with supporting documents are also held at BA-MA Freiburg and/or the German Military History Office in Potsdam.

L.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I think this may be what I was referring to above:

28 March and 19 August 1942 – 4376/367
Landing Dieppe. Hourly reports by the Corps headquarters of the IX Air Force
Corps at Le Francport near Compiegne, 19 August 1942 and British landing
attempts in the area of the Loire estuary, 28 March 1942. 15 pages.

L.

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

Thanks for that information. I've just this week, got copies of the IX Fliegerkorps documents from Bundesarchiv, so I'm busy translating them, but I'll have a look at getting hold of that document in the future.

Regards,

Steve

Edit: Looking again at the Bundesarchiv IX Fliegerkorps document (RL-8-64), I see from a note on the first page that its the same document '4376-367' you mentioned, so looks like I've got that covered!

Re: Fate of 6./KG2 on 19th August 1942
 

I've finished goggle translating my way through Ulf Balke's KG2 book and he has 5453, 1217, 5459 and 4221 as being the four 6./KG2 aircraft that launched at 11:54. None returned, though 5459 was able to make a forced landing at Abbeville.

5440 is listed as launching at 15:08 and later crashing near Dieppe.

Regards,

Steve