Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Am I a bit poor on identification (ID) or am seen between 1:03 and 1:10hs, an US Air Force fighter shooting down a RAF Mosquito (probably a PR machine)?

If so, this is may be one of the rarest cases of "Blue on Blue footage" ever seen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE3PceU-UqA

There are a lot of other amazing footages, like the Me 262 spinning after hit and the Me 163 Komet belly landing and being shot.

A.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Adriano,
Certainly looks like a Mossie. What is the bump on the right hand fuselage? Camera port?


There is also the possibility, that its an even rarer Luftwaffe gun camera footage, firing on a Mosquito.


...geoff

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

The bulge is a fuel coolant radiator on stbd side under the wing.

This and the large canopy dome would suggest to me a PR XVI

Regards

Martin

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Not unheard of. A few SAAF Mossies were shot down by USAAF fighters, so bad that 60 sqdn started to paint Barber stripes on the fins.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

A very common occurrence for both PR Mossies and Spits to be intercepted by USAAF and RAF fighters. Often a bigger threat than the Luftwaffe.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

On the "Mosquito fates" spreadsheet compiled by Mark Huxtable theres this reference:


"In the ORB for 140 PR Squadron, on 2nd October 1944, Mosquito XVI NS523 took off at 08.15 hrs from Melsbroeck, on a sortie to Krefield - Duisberg. However, I don’t know if it was the outbound or inbound stage of the sortie, the a/c was intercepted according to the ORB by a P-47 of IX U.S.A.A.F., shooting it down near Louvain (now Leuven?), Belgium, resulting in the loss of the crew, S/L C.D.N. Longley and F/S J.T. Taylor. Based on the duration of a sortie of the same day it would have taken no more than three hours, which means the shoot down must have occurred some time before 11.15hrs. "2nd TAF" says MS523 (sic), with F/S J.T. Taylor aboard as navigator for F/L M. Jones, was hit by flak near Boulogne and crash-landed at 12.20, Category B damage, Taylor being injured. The P-47 pilot claimed this as a "Mosquito in German markings" (!). n October 2nd, Tubby Longley, who had commanded 'A' Flight 140 since March, was returning from the last sortie of his tour with his navigator, F/Sgt Taylor, when they were attacked by a Thunderbolt near Louvain and shot down: both were killed. (http://www.34wing.co.uk/34wing.html) Shot down by P-47 on PR mission nr Louvain 2.10.44 (Air Britain Serials)"

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

I have read at least one account where anti-aircraft gunners in Europe let an enemy flight pass while firing on friendly aircraft. A publication was produced during the war as described in the following:


"For training purposes, models were especially important — per the U.S. Army-Navy Journal of Recognition, it was critical that observers be able to see an “object as a whole” and be “able, through
constant practice, to recognize that object (plane, tank, ship, etc…) from any angle.” Initially, the parts-based WEFT recognition system (standing for: wings, engine, fuselage and tail) dominated
training, but it was time-consuming — observers had to recognize then mentally assemble parts to determine the whole. This approach was subsequently discarded in favor of a total-perception
view of recognition, aimed at speeding up the identification process by tapping into innate pattern-recognition capabilities. The Journal of Recognition also published regular issues to help keep
readers up to date on changes in aircraft design."


Example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/39384434944...kAAOSwsQ1hx31W

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Capt. Maurice L. Martin of the 390th Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group claimed to have shot down a Mosquito with German markings on 2 October. From the squadron history, "One Mosquito, blue gray in color with German crosses on the fuselage was spotted flying due west at 12,000 feet at 0925 hours. It was shot down by Captain Martin at 0940, exploding in mid-air and landing at J-6057, on the outskirts of Louvain."

Kent

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

The Mosquito on the 2nd October was NS523 of 140 Sqn RAF that was shot down by P-47s near Louvain on a PR sortie

S/L CDN Longley and F/S JT Taylor both killed

I see that info is already set out in an earlier post, oh well

Regards

Martin

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

When I first saw this image, I indeed thought this could be one of those machines, either from 680 or 140 Squadron. We must remembered that at least one 25th BG reconaissance machine (US) was also shot down by friendly fire...

What is amazing is that this is an US Air Force "official footage" where we do see this clearly DH Mosquito being shot down.

Thanks for all who contributed!

A.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Hi all,

from my youtube archive, there is the whole sequences of the gun camera - including the last moment of this Mossie :-(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB5fDmT_2x4

Based on this movie, it is probably Mosquito PR Mk. XVI NS522:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/165286

This Mossie was claimed like Me 410 by 4th FG 335 FS pilot over Helgoland - sadly in the area, where the all US escort fighters were "really hot".

As I remember, there was similar movie from RAF/US fighters, which shotdowned 2 Mossie during flight.

Faenor

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Any evasive action... why? Focused on PR job?
We will never know.

ClinA-78

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Two pilots from the 4th FG, 335th FS (fixed, thanks Frank) were credited with the shoot down of a "ME 410", each getting half a credit.

The first was 2nd Lt Ralph Edward Lewis. Lewis was later killed on 18 November 1944.
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/175301
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...h-edward-lewis

The second pilot was 1st Lt Elmer Norbert McCall, Jr. (1923 - ????)
https://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/57574

McCall finished the war with this his only credit. He became a businessman in the Pittsburgh, PA area. He started a family business which
is still operated by McCall family members today.

Two RAF men in the Mosquito:
Pilot: Flight Lt Alfred Earnest Palmer (39 missions).

Copy/Paste link and Search for Palmer here: isle-of-wight-memorials.org.uk/towns/ventnorwm.htm


Navigator: Flight Sgt Douglas Gardner (39 missions).
http://www.undyingmemory.net/Newmark...20douglas.html

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Typo: Lewis and McCall were in the 335th FS of the 4th FG.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Am somewhat puzzled that a Me-410 was seen as a/c shot down by gun camera interpreters too? No questions made afterwards?

Regards,
Leendert

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Hi Leendert,

probably yes, but they will not share it :-(

For many cases , the fighting took just seconds and there was no time for detailed identification - 2 engines, a high rudder, over the occupied Holland - a clear Me 410 and a vision to incease the score. Sadly, s.... was happen.

If I remember correctly, MTO Mosquitos wore red stripes on the rudder for this reason - be safe again the US fighters.

Faenor

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Faenor. The red-white recognition stripes were marked on in 1944 by 60 Sqn. SAAF ( yellow spinners) and 680 RAF (red ) Mk.XVIs. in Italy. The black-white bands were for Operation Dragoon in S. France.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/3032868486
Regards
Nick

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Hi Buckeye30,

these re/white stripes was reaction on attact from US fighter to PR Mossies - to show them, that they are friends and not Me 210/410 - you can imagine, that these stripes are not standard luftwaffe marking and from rear view can be visible fro attacker.
And MTO mean Mediterranean Theater of Operations - somethink like ETO for Europe, PTO for Pacific - so Italy is there too :-)

Faenor

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

I found this link to a pdf file about 140 Squadron.

http://www.jshawmsc.f2s.com/140squadron.pdf

On page 46 is a photo identified as PR XVI NS777 of 140 Squadron at Melsbroek, December 1944.

The black and white stripes do not go entirely around the plane fuselage and the tail does not have any distinctive markings.

I can't see any markings on the top of the wing(s) (the bottom of the wing is not visible).

Page 38 mentions the loss (no details).

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Hi Rolland. These are the remains of the "D-Day" (ie Normandy) stripes as distinctive from the similar "Dragoon" markings on Mosquitos in S. France in Aug. 1944 ( French aircraft had them but much narrower); the D-Day ones were ordered removed from all surfaces by a SHAEF letter Dec.6 1944 EXCEPT for the PR wing in 2nd TAF. so some were left under the fuselage only as on many Ninth AF P-47s ( from top surfaces from July 6).
The stripes on French aircraft in S. France ( eg. P-47s, D.520s, SBDs and Bostons) were very narrow, about 6" and marked further outboard on wings. Some FAA Hellcats supporting the invasion had the wider style on escort carriers.
Nick

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Nick
It is not exactly like that. Overlord stripes were removed by the end of August 1944 IIRC, then Market-Garden stripes applied under fuselages only. Around the time full fuselage stripes were introduced for twin engined aircraft. It is much more confusing than it may seem.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Hi Franek.

The SHAEF Memorandum (No.23) which had ordered the application of the stripes (in April) was amended several times to remove them in stages.........
July 6 amended to remove stripes fro upper surfaces.
Aug.19 amended to remove from below wings but retain fuselage ones.
Oct. 13 Change no.4 to be left under fuselage only.
Dec.6 Memo.23-- suspended until the 31st, remaining stripes to be removed except for 34 (PR) Wing / 2nd TAF at Northolt ( 16, 69 and 140 Sqns)*******.
As mentioned above not all Eighth-Ninth fighters complied exactly and some didn't bother to take the stripes off the bellies.
The glider-tow aircraft mostly Stirlings marked bands on for Market Garden, right round the fuselages.

Nick

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

NICK (Buckeye)

Nice stuff (material) regarding this SHAEF Memorandum. Thanks for sharing this with us!

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

Thanks! I think it is a bit more complicated. Eg. 133 Wg ADGB flew sans stripes during Antidiver Campaign, but had stripes reapplied during September. Also CC aircraft flew with full fuse stripes at least until December. Also, IIRC, there are known photos of No 305 Sqn Mossies (2 TAF) with full fuse stripes but sans wings.

Re: Blue on Blue footage (US x RAF Mosquito?)
 

RAF Benson was asking for special dispensation for the removal of invasion stripes from its Spitfires and Mosquitos withing weeks of them being applied.