Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

I will try to do the same work as the one done for October 22 for the whole of me.

I want to apologize because I deal with the day in disorder to follow the progress of my work on the Normandie-Niemen.

Today we are going to look at October 23.

This day the JG52 claims 8 victories, 7 Lagg and 1 Il-2 in the sector of gumbinnen.




This day the 1st VA (Air Force) loses 11 planes of which 7 (6 IL-2 and 1 Yak-9) are shot down by the Flak and 4 are reported missing (4 Il-2)

1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m.
331 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 12:45 p.m. to 6 p.m.
182 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 2:40 p.m. - 6 p.m.
The 64th ShAP carried out a bombardment mission from 2 p.m. to 2:40 p.m. of the Gross Trakehenen sector protected by Lagg-5s of the 805 IAP
For the 397th ShAP: no information
For the 539th ShAP: no information, but protected by the Lagg of the 805th IAP.
277th ShAD two 2 Il-2 shot down 1 missing

The 130th IAD had a 1 Yak-9 shot down by the Flak.

The 129th IAD protect IL-2 of the 182nd ShAD and 277th ShAD. 1 combat without victory or loss between Lagg (805 IAP) and German planes (425 cartridges of SchVAK used).
790 IAP = no information.
805 IAP = 1 combat between 2 la-5 and two Me 109 without result. The time is not specified in the regiment's report.
863 IAP = no information.

- 303 IAD => 12 la5 and 8 La7 of the 523rd IAP fly during the day. 1 fight has binds in the day.

from 4:30 p.m. to 5:20 p.m. two La7s encounter two Me-109s near Gumbinnen and the attacks one Me 109 is shot down and crashes 4 km SE of the town.



this fight matches that claim :


this victory is not confirmed by the Soviet archives


The Soviet sources available to me do not allow me to identify the other battles that led to German claims. However, the lack of loss of Lagg-5 and Lagg-7 during the day suggests that all of JG52's victories come under Overclaiming.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Greetings,
On October 22, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD had the following four permanent Il-2m3 Sturmovik losses:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875299 (Shatapin)

75 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1878692 (Popov)
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877998 (Abramov)

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875292 (Kozin) - at landing.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Gabor,

Thans for your answer, thanks to it , i have seen, i have wrote 22 instead 23. I had already discussed October 22 here : http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61464

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

I am sorry, then here are the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD losses for October 23, 1944:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877699 (Malinovskii) - combat loss
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 18826114 (Kolotoets) - combat loss

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1874588 (Emelyanov) - at landing

136 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1870596 (Lutin) - at landing

Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

As far as I can see from JG 52 sources and Johannes Matthews, Batz did not claim anything on Oct 22nd.
The only unit of JG 52 that claimed that day was II Gruppe and I don't think they were in Poland/East Prussia but rather defending Hungary.
Bernd Barbas put them at Taktakenéz.
What is your sources regarding this unknown claim by Batz and other JG 52 claims in "your area"?

With regard to II./JG 52s activities in the defense of Hungary I am sure our knowledgeable Gabor knows basically everything.
Understandably he probably like us to buy his forthcoming book and does not want to go into details here :)
I will buy his books anyway though!!
Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Thank you Stig, the book is in the final phase, lots of work going on with the editor and the typesetter. I hope it will be available in early March. Just a little more patience... ;-)
Thanks,
Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

You bet I can wait Gabor!! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Gabor,

You are right, but as it was IL-2 hit by Flak and I was looking for lagg5, I did not go into detail. I limited myself to this:
1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Stig Jarlevik,

We are spoken about the 23th october, the 22th is an other tread. For the 23, i tried to work from Tony WOOD's list of which I am attaching an extract below


https://zupimages.net/up/22/05/z90t.png


In my mind the III/JG52 was based in :

10.44 - 10.44 Lobellen Bf 109G
10.44 - 11.44Jürgenfelde Bf 109G

Them it's seam to me that Batz claimed victory in East Prussia.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Ahh

It seems e-mails overlap here.
I took an interest in the subject because Gabor stated some real losses (I am interested in Soviet aircraft where
their production numbers are mentioned).
After pressing enter I got an immediate automatic reply and never checked anything above that so I never saw
dates etc had been changed.

Sorry about that.
Thanks Gabor for the Il-2 losses for the 23rd as well!! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

PS: Looking at Wood's list I wonder why the claims are written as they are?

Obviously the NJG 5's claim has nothing to do with III./JG 52' claims and should be on a separate line.

Also Batz' claim 10.43H is out of line and should be listed after his 10.33H claim and not after his afternoon claims.

As far as III./JG 52 goes, looking at the times, they thus flew one morning mission and one afternoon mission.
Unless the Germans were still shooting up the clouds or thin air it begs the question what morning missions
did the Soviets fly?
I cannot see any relevant details in your summary of 1VA
If the Soviets did not fly any missions in that period the German claims are not overclaiming, they are plainly falsified!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

10h30 German time = 12h30 Moscow time, so a part of 1 VA activity is close to the German claims hour.

Ad for Wood's list I have downloaded them a dozen years ago and compiled in one Word file heavily reworked in the past years, but I have apparently never work on 23 October 1944 as my setup is the same.

If we exclude the claims of JG 51 (N of Warsaw), II./JG 52 (in Hungary) and NJG 5 (night claim), the German claims over East Prussia according to the Wood list are:

23.10.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Batz Stab III./JG 52 LaGG  25 388: 300 m. [SSE Gumbinnen] 10.30 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
23.10.44 Fhr. Dembeck III./JG 52 Il-2 m.H.  25 382: 300 m. [SE Gumbinnen] 10.30 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
23.10.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Batz Stab III./JG 52 LaGG  25 523: 1.000 m. [SE Gumbinnen] 10.33 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
23.10.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Batz Stab III./JG 52 LaGG  25 533: 1.300 m. [SE Gumbinnen] 10.43 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

23.10.44 Maj. Werner Dörnbrack Stab I./SG 4 Yak-9  Location: 1500 m.[East Prussia] 13.00 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 15

23.10.44 Uffz. Arras 9./JG 52 LaGG  25 319: 400 m. [N Gumbinnen] 13.58 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
23.10.44 Ltn. Hans-Joachim Birkner 9./JG 52 LaGG  25 314: 400 m. [NW Gumbinnen] 14.00 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
23.10.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Batz Stab III./JG 52 LaGG  25 397: 800 m. [SE Gumbinnen] 14.00 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

23.10.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Batz Stab III./JG 52 LaGG  25 389: 4.000 m. [SE Gumbinnen] 14.39 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

So at least four distinct air battles:
Around 1030-1040 hrs (1230-1240 Moscow time): SE of Gumbinnen III./JG 52 vs Il-2 & "LaGG"
Around 1300 hrs (1500 Moscow time): unknown location, I./SG 4 vs "Yak-9"
Around 1400 hrs (1600 Moscow time): III./JG 52 vs "LaGG" (around Gumbinnen)
Around 1440 hrs (1640 Moscow time): III./JG 52 vs "LaGG" (SE Gumbinnen)

Please note that Batz' claim at 1400 hrs is in the same area than his claim of 1439 hrs, and not in the same area than other III./JG 52 claims at the time, so probably something is wrong there, either time or location

German losses in JG and SG were limited according to the Luftwaffe summary losses database: only one aircraft of III./JG 52 was destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

"If the Soviets did not fly any missions in that period the German claims are not overclaiming, they are plainly falsified!"

It happened in Hungary too. One day in November, 1944 the weather was so bad that the Soviets had only a single A-20G Boston recon. sortie during the entire day (which by the way returned OK), all of their other planes stayed on the ground, yet the Germans claimed 'aerial victories'.

Surely these claims were reported way before the age of the Internet and public access to the military records of the other side.

Gabor

PS: I am not saying that only the Germans did such things, but now we are talking about them.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Laurent

Excluding the SG 4 claim, I only see III./JG 52 making two missions.
No way Bartz is making a claim 14.00 going back to refuel and up again in a new combat 40 minutes later making a new claim. Just don't buy that.

The Germans early claims are extremely marginal vs the reported Soviet mission times.
Somehow I need better details than that....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hi Stig!
Don't you think that Batz could make claime soon after take off at 14:00 and then 14:00 few minutes befor return, both in one sortie?
Nevertheless, more details neded endeed. Especialy I wonder why so few data about Schlachgrupen action?
By the way, Group Army "Mitte"'s day report aprove Tony Wood's list staying that 23 october fighters got 15 kills in area Serock and Gumbinnen. (2 by IV./JG 51 in Serock and 13 by others in Gumbinnen, exept 1 night kill).

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Oh yes I can
But that is not the point I am making.
I don't believe Batz was on his second mission at 14.00H and his third at 14.39H. I believe he was on one and the same mission when claiming his two afternoon victories.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

There remains the possibility that the German pilots attacked weather reconnaissance and reconnaissance flights. Each Soviet regiment sends out a patrol at the beginning of the day to test the weather. Despite the absence of Soviet losses, it is therefore possible that shots were fired against Soviet planes, which were very easily able to escape due to bad weather conditions.

We could therefore be more, as the 2:39 claim shows, in overconfidence than in pure fictional victories.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

The claims of J.G. 52 were all seems to have been directly above or at least in the general area of Fsch.Panzerkorps Hermann Göring apart from the Birkner & Arras claims. The daily report of the Korps to A.O.K. 4 mentions one German attack starting 0930 in the Plicken/Kettenberg area and Soviet attacks with strong air support during the mid-morning hours ("...während des Vormittags unter bisher größtem Luftwaffeneinsatz...") against the eastern flank of the corps and against Schweizerau and Mattischkehmen. The 1030-1043 claims seemed to have been directly above or within a few km of the frontline. For the afternoon strong Soviet attacks with air support are reported for 1430 in the Groß Trakehnen/Wildau area. Further German attacks are mentioned in the hours before and after 1530 in the Birkenhöhe/Brückental/Girnen area (Batz 1400 & 1430). Generally regarding aerial activity Fsch.Panzerkorps HG reported strong Luftwaffe support at hotspots of the fighting and strong enemy air attacks by ground attacks and fighter units throughout the day against the front/main combat line and heavy weapon positions. (“Die feind. Luftwaffe griff während des ganzen Tages mit starken Schlacht- und Jagdflugzeugverbänden HKL und die Stellungen der schw. Waffen an.“)

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

24 October 1944

This day the germans claim 7 victories on the Gross trapez 25 of the 25 Ost Map. 6 of them, in the Mitteltrapez 253, i.e. the gumbinnen's area and one in the Mitteltrapez 255 i.e. the goldap's area.

4 of them take place in the same period of time (12:49 p.m. to 12:51 p.m.) and in the same Mitteltrapez (253) which corresponds to the Gumbinnen sector and Kleintrapez (2538) which corresponds to the Gross Walterkehmen sub-sector ( before 1938, toponym used by the Soviets) ie Gross Waltersdorf (post 1938 toponym used by the Germans). With the German victories, it is thus necessary to seek a Soviet attacks along the Rominte river between Augstupönen (Hochfliess) and Walterkehmen (Gross Waltersdorf). This sector corresponds to the counter-offensive sector of the 5th Panzer Division and 5th Heavy Panzer Detachment.

20 minutes (12:33) earlier in the same sector, Friedrich Simon of 9./JG 51 claims a LaGG-5 in PlQu 25383 Skardupchen

still in the same time slot 24 Oct 44, Joachim Brendel of Stab III./JG 51 claims an Il-2 Sturmovik at 12:45 15 km North-East (25511-Krauzleidszen)

At 3:38 p.m., Karl Gratz of Stab /JG 52 claimed LaGG 5 km NW of Gumbinnen (25373 – Angerek).

For their part, the Soviets (1 VA) deplore the loss of 6 planes, including 2 due to enemy aviation (1 Il2 and La5), 2 Il2 shot down by the Flak and 2 Il2 missing.

7 claim for 6 losses everything seems to be fine, but looking at the details, it will appear some problems.

The Germans claim 4 il-2, so we will look at ShaD activity:

1 Gv Shad: in reserve.

311 ShaD: carrying out reconnaissance in the Gross Trakehnen sector and combat and reconnaissance missions in the Goldap region do not report having encountered any enemy aircraft.

277 ShAD, performs reconnaissance flights from 7:43 a.m. to 6:05 p.m. and combat missions from 11:40 a.m. to 6:05 p.m. under the protection of planes of the 129 ShaD equipped with La-5. in the sectors of:
Plawischken (5 km N of Goldap), Gross Gudellen, Eszergallen (10 km N of Goldap), Gawaïten, Kariotkehmen (15 NW of Goldalp).
No battle losses.


182 Shad regrets the loss of 2 Il2 destroyed by Flaks, 1 destroyed by AI and 2 missing. It carries out two assault missions from 2:15 p.m. to 2:40 p.m. and from 5:10 p.m. to 5:20 p.m. Sector Walleykehmen, Jentkutkampen (25333) Brakupönen-Karmohen (10 km NW Gumbinnen – 2 km south of Pillkallen).

Report of the 182nd ShAD: The tasks of the division: during the day 24.10.44. by successive strikes of groups of six aircraft in the period from 12:00 p.m. to 12:45 p.m., destroyed artillery pieces, enemy troops in the sectors of Schilleningken (25414), Schwirgallen (25414), Uszdeggen (25336), target No. 59 (10 km NW Stallupönen) with the task of assisting the ground troops offensive. At 2:35 p.m., the first six 397 ShAPs appeared over the target, followed by six IL-2 64 ShAPs, then the groups arrived at the target with an interval of 15 minutes, the action of the aircraft of attack in formation of combat in a free circle at an altitude of 300 to 1100 mt. of 3-4 rotations making 5-6 attacks. The enemy provided strong opposition with flak and fighter fire.
In total 19 groups composed of 111 aircraft (flight time of 109 hours 10 m.)
Our losses - 6 crew did not return from the combat mission, 1 crew in the Gumbinen area was shot down by enemy fighters, 3 crew in the target area were hit by flak fire and two crew were missing.

397 Shap:
Losses: Cptn MALEVANNOGO Danil


We are therefore faced with a problem, the losses of Il-2 taking place N of Stallupönen around 12:30 p.m. (10:30 a.m. for the Germans) and the German claims to the S of Gumbinen at 2:50 p.m. (12:50 p.m. for the Germans).

The only unit carrying out a reconaissance-attack mission with 6 il-2s protected by fighters (Yak9 from memory) in the Gross Waltterke sector is the 311 ShaD, but it did not encounter any enemy aircraft.

So the question is who did the Stab/JG51 attack?



Now let's try to identify victories and combat between fighter aircraft.

303 IAD: 4 combats no losses.

129 IAD: performs protection missions for the benefit of the 182nd and 277th ShAD.
3 combat losses of an La-5 -
Our losses: Shot down during an air battle during the Il-2 escort of the 182 ShAD, the pilot Ltn KOKURIN of the 863rd IAP. Fallen in enemy territory 10 km west of STALLUPENEN.

https://zupimages.net/up/22/05/q6xx.jpg



Although we don't know Ltn Kokurin's time, the circumstances and theirs suggest that the time must be around 12:30 p.m., or 10:30 a.m. German. Which does not correspond to any claim of the Luftwaffe.




805 IAP: protect during the day the 64th ShAP AND 539th Shap of the 182nd ShAD. 1 combat against 4 Fw 190 and 2 Me 109, without result.

130 IAD: 2 fights without loss or victory

240 IAD: two combats having opposed 4 Yak-9 (133rd Gv IAP) to 4 Me 109 and 4 FW 190. without losses or results.

Conclusion: Although reading the available Soviet archives did not allow us to identify the battles that led to German claims, it appears that none of the German claims could be linked to a loss of Soviet aircraft.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

"Conclusion: Although reading the available Soviet archives did not allow us to identify the battles that led to German claims, it appears that none of the German claims could be linked to a loss of Soviet aircraft."

Interesting conclusion and (although I have not researched it), I think it can be true. But to avoid the false impression that the Germans just made up their claims we have to admit that very often the German pilots hit their opponents very hard indeed, but some Soviet airplanes were even harder and returned to their bases with serious damages where they were repaired in 1-2 days and returned to combat service. It is possible that in the wild circumstances the Germans could not, or did not want to waste their time (and life) verifying the burning Soviet planes on the ground, so they reported their claims based on their impression which now turned out to be wrong. This could be a reasonable explanation for the numbers.

Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

My own humble opinion is that if if German pilots claimed victories, and Soviet air units reported losses due to enemy fighters, at least some of the German victories should be justified. I think that the distance between Gumbinen and Stallupönen is small enough for an air battle to start over one and end over the other. Same with the times, 182nd ShAD reported having launched heavy air attacks between between 1200 and 1240 hrs (German time) and lost 5 Il-2 (2 to Flak, 2 missing, 1 shot down by a fighter), while 129 IAP lost one La-5 probably escorting it at the same time. Against these losses, German pilots claimed 3 Il-2 and 2 fighters between 1233 and 1251 hrs.

A possible explanation will be that Stabstaffel JG 51 was scrambled when the attack starts and arrived at the end of the Soviet air assault and then hit a Soviet formation after the bombing was finished.

Still for me, the difference in distance and time between Soviet losses and German claims are inferior to the error margin in reports "allowed" to link them as possible matchs.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Laurent,


Thank you for your participation, indeed, I think it is possible to confuse Insterburg, Gumbinnen, Stallupönen, Kirbataï. This is also one of my explanations for the above-ground claims of the Normandie-Niemen pilots. But I don't think you can confuse North and South, Gross Waltersdorff and Pillkallen.

The most probable explanation is that the German pilots fighting at 1 against 8 (then 1 against 18 in January 1945), only exacerbated the combat techniques of mid-1943. That is to say lightning attacks without trying to continue the fight or trying to really know the result and therefore consider that an aircraft affected was lost for the Soviets in the more or less long term.

It must also be considered that the weather conditions are sometimes foggy and that planes must disappear there.

Another significant element is that this "extraordinary rate of overclaiming" is also found among the Soviets (especially because of the French who representing only 9% of Soviet fighters are not far from weighing 2/3 of Soviet overclaiming ).
Is it due to the end-of-war atmosphere and the will of some to complete a track record before it's too late?

PS: do you have the German losses for this October 24? It will be useful to us for the balance sheet and the comparisons.

thanks in advance

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

I've tryed to make clear for myself that case some time ago and came to another possible plot of that sortie. 2 Il-2 were hit by Flak near Gumbinnen and have tryed to reach own territory but were intercepted and killed by enemy fighters near Stalluponen. But it is just naked theory.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Again from the Luftwaffe summary losses database:
Loss date: Unit: No of Aircraft: Lost Category: Report date:
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 02/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 09/11/1944
24/10/1944 IV./J.G.5 1 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.26 1 N Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight 05/11/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.51 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.51 1 N Damaged by other enemy action 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 IV./J.G.51 1 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 29/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.52 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./J.G.53 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 04/11/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.54 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 II./J.G.54 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 J.Gr.West 1 N Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight 29/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./S.G.10 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944

All losses I have (when I extracted data years ago), so more than East Prussia

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Thank you Laurent, I did the sorting and I got this result:

Soviet claims (in parenthesis, Normandy-Niemen claim).

5 (3) FW 190 and 6 (4) Me 109

Luftwaffe losses in East Prussia: 2 Me 109G. (3 if we wanted to be optimistic).
24/10/1944 I./J.G.51 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.51 1 N Damaged by other enemy action 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.52 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 30/10/1944

11 victories claimed for 2 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe in air combat.

This confirms that the overclaiming is bilateral.

I looked in detail at the claims of the Me-109 by the Soviets:
4 Me 109, by the Normandie Niemen,
Asp Lemare 1 Me-109 5 km SE near 3:00 p.m.
Asp Manceau/Lemare/Charras 1 Me-109 5 km SE Gumbinnen 3:00 p.m.
Ltn De la Salle 1 Me-109 at 10 km SE Gumbinnen near 15:00
Cptn Matras 1 Me-109 at 20 km NW Insterburg near 6:00 p.m.


1 by 129th IAD, no more info. (805 IAP no victory).

1 by the 130th IAD, from 5.45 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., Two Yak-3, Major Pakhomov and Captain Trechtchev 12 km southwest of Gumbinnen crossed 4 Me 109 and 2 FW 190. One Me 109 had been shooted by the Major Pakhomov, and crashed around Nemmersdorf.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello, Laurent and Laurent ) Thank you for losses data. Is there any information, did these losses happened not in East Prussia?
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Zhekab,

It seem to me that the II./S.G.3 is in czechoslovakia
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944

It seem to me that the III./S.G.4 is in Latvia
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944

It seem to me that the III./S.G.4 is in Germany (Saalau).
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944


For me, here is the list of ground attack units based in East Prussia.

II/SG1: 39 FW190 based at Gerdauen.
10(Pz)/SG1: 21 Ju87 at Hüttenfelde.
10 (Pz) SG3: 12 Ju87 at Hüttenfelde.
Stab/SG4: 3 FW 190-F8 based in Insterburg.
I/SG4: 26 FW 190 based in Insterburg.
II/SG4: 33 FW 190s based at Hüttenfelde
III/SG4: presence not confirmed.
Stab IV / SG9: 14 Hs129 at Shippenbeil.
13 staffel /SG9: 19 Hs129 in Jurgenfeld.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

On October 25 Luftwaffe pilots claimed 4 victories in the Goldad sector (255--):

Friedrich Obleser of the Stab III./JG 52 claimed a Il-2 Sturmovik at 14:59 in PlQu:25999.
Hans-Joachim Birkner 9./JG 52 claimed 1 LaGG at 15:02 in PlQu: 25586.
Hans-Joachim Birkner claimed second LaGG at 15:00
Uffz. Arras of the 9./JG 52 claimed a LaGG at 15:02 in the 25597

On their side the Soviets lose 2 IL-2 destroyed by the Flak, 3 IL-2 missing and 1 La-5 destroyed by damage.

If we look at the detail by division:

182nd ShAD: 2 IL-2 destroyed by Flak, 1 Il-2 missing. At 11:00 am around Schwirgallen 1 Il-2 of 64 ShAP shot down by the Flak crashed near Schwurgallen. 5 Il-2s made emergency landings during the returns.
1st Gv ShAD: 2 Il-2s missing.
130th IAD: 3 dogfights, but only involving Yak-9s
303rd IAD: no encounter with the enemy.
240th IAD: no encounter with enemy.
129th IAD: no encounter with the enemy 1 La-5 destroyed by damage to its airfield.

As this day the Russians do not lose Lagg, I will look for the fights reported by the Soviets in the Goldad sector (2558-,2559-)

130 IADs:
168th IAP: 5:15 p.m., a group of Yak-9s protecting Il-2s from 952 ShAP (311 ShaD, 1 VA) 2-5 km W of Goldap engage in combat with 6 Fw 190s and 8 me109s. During this Combat 1 FW is shot down by Ltn Romenskiy which crashes 2 km W of Goldap (i.e 25582) and 1 Me 109 is shot down by Ltm Borobiev and crashes 5 km from the same town. The Il-2 gunners also claim 1 FW-190. No Il-2 hit.

It may therefore be the combat during which III/JG52 claim 1 Il-2 and 3 Lagg. In general, the name Lagg seems to be the default type of Soviet aircraft and very often when the combats are identified, it is Yak.

This remark brings us back to the fight of October 23rd when we could not identify the Lagg claimed by JG52, perhaps we should have looked for fights involving Yaks?

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Laurent,

According to ww2.dk Grup's base was Libau (Latvia). But I don't have durable evedances that II./S.G.3 flew in Gumbinnen area in October.

Don't have concrete proves it was in East Prussia too till the end of October, but Larry DeZeng and Andrey Kuznetsov 10 years ago gave this information:
"Now became clear what III./SG4 relocated to East Prussia between 18. and 22.Oct.44 because, according to KTB HGr "Nord", on 23.Oct. only two Schlachtgruppen were in Courland (II. and III./SG3, without doubt)."
look here:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=28698

According to ww2.dk one staffel could be at Udetfeld (East Prussia). One more thing - Lieutenant Hans-Georg Lohmeyer was attached to what group, when he was missed two days before?

Stab III / SG3 also was at Libau/Gerdauen

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Zhekab,

Thanks for your help, i will consider the II/III/III STAB/SG3

According the death-card of Lohmeyer was attached to the 6 staffel of II/SG77. Then it's will be possible that this staffel was here or Lohmeyer was detached to an other unity. I'm no idear about that.

Udetfeld is in Poland (1000 far away East Prussia).

Udetfeld(POL)(a.k.a. Zendek, Shendek, Schendek)(50 28 35 N – 19 04 55 E)
General:airfield (Fliegerhorst) in Silesia 24 km N of Kattowitz (Katowice).History:
mainly used by the Luftwaffe as an evaluation and testing center.Surface and Dimensions:
1940 measured 1550 x 2000 meters with 3 runways of 1600 meters each.Infrastructure:
2 hangars and a separate repair hangar

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

October 26, 1944

Sector Gumbinnen – Stallupönen.
Hptm Wilhelm Batz Stab III/JG52 LaGG 25336 Kattenau . 11:09
Hptm Wilhelm Batz Stab III/JG52 LaGG 25338 Kattenau . 11:10 a.m.
Ltn Karl Gratz Stab/JG52 Il2 25543 Darkehmen 11h00
Uffz. Robert Anlauf 3/JG52 Il2 25445 Darkehmen 11h16
Uffz. Robert Anlauf 3/JG52 LaGG-5 25498 soviet sector 11:17
Oblt. Franz Faber Stab I/JG52 Il2 25498 soviet sector 11h25

Goldap sector.
Obfhr Friedrich Blessin 9/JG52 LaGG 2554- /Goldap 9h05
Ltn Karl Gratz Stab/JG52 Il2 25577 10 km W Goldap 11:00
Hptm Adolf Borchers Stab I/JG52 Il2 25373 10 km W Goldap 11h15
Ofw Helmut Schönfelder Stabsstaffel/ JG51 Pe-2 2581 btw Goldap-Suwalki 14:37
Oblt Manfred Eberwein 1/JG52 Yak-3 25583 Goldap 15:22

The Luftwaffe claims 4 Lagg including 1 laGG-5, 5 Il2, 1 Pe2 and 1 Yak3, for its part the 1st VA deplores the loss of 5 Aircraft 2 Il-2 destroyed by the Flak, 1 Yak-3 and 2 IL2 missing .

303 IAD = 1 Yak-3 reported missing from the 1st OIAP = de Geoffre, disappearance, not found in the reports of the 303 IAD.
18 Gv IAP, no encounter with the enemy.
139 Gv IAP, no encounter with the enemy.
523 IAP (8 La5 and 7 La7), no encounter with the enemy.
1 OIAP "Normandy" 2 dogfights
240 IAD no losses: 2 aerial combat between 4 Yak-9 and 4 Me 109 and 4 FW 190.
330IAD: no losses
609 IAP:
161 IAP: No Enemy Encounter.
129 IAD: Mission: escort of 182 and 277 ShAD.
3 dogfights during which 1 Fw-190 and 1 Me 109 were shot down. No Losses as well as in escorted Il2s.
790I AP: -
805 IAP: 1 air combat between 4 la5 and 2 Me 109 and 2 FW 190 without result or losses.
863 IAP: -
130 IAD no losses
168 IAP: 29 Yak-9Ls escort the IL2s of 952 ShAP. 4 dogfights including 1 in the vicinity of Goldap.
409 IAP: 18 Yak-9s escort the IL2s of 953 ShAP, an aerial combat at 3:40 p.m. (SU) 10 km SE of Goldalp, 1 Me 109 shot down which crashes at Gurnen.
909 IAP: (Yak-9), 1 aerial combat at 1800 altitude with 2 Me 109 in the sector of Flesten (5 km SW of Goldap).


We will try to identify the IL-2 units attacked between 11h00 and 11h30 (G) or 13h-13h30 (SU)

1 Gv Shad: no air activity at 1 p.m. – 1:30 p.m. (SU). And from 5:40 p.m. to 5:55 p.m. in the Gumbinnen area.

311 ShaD: in the period from 15:40 to 15:45 in the area of ​​JOANNISBERG (5 km south of Goldap -25589), today Janowo-Poland), a group of 6 IL-2 952 AP attacked by a pair of FV -190. Enemy aircraft carried out a total of 4 attacks, as a result of which the air gunner of the leader of the group, Senior Lieutenant SADAIDAK - Sergeant OSTASHKOV was injured, he died 2 hours after returning to his airfield.

277 ShAD: performs missions from 10:38 to 17:00 under the protection of La-5s of 790 IAP, in the sectors of Perkallen (25385), Marienhof, Alt Grünwalde (25382), нештокэмен, Kiauten (25553)
The report notes attacks by FW-190.
999 ShAP: No missions between 1:00 p.m. and 1:30 p.m. (SU).

182 ShAD: The Course of Hostilities - Attack aircraft worked in difficult weather conditions at low altitude, due to low cloud. Weather - Cloudiness 6-8 points, height 400-600 mt. visibility 2-4 km.
At 09:43-10:21, a pair of crews carried out additional reconnaissance in the target area. At 12:15, the first six of 539 ShAP appeared over the target, the next groups appeared over the target (Pillkallen) within an interval of 15 km.
At 5:00 p.m., three groups of six hit the enemy infantry concentration in the Pillkallen area, Karczarningken (Blumensfeld), in one day, 7 groups flew, made 50 self-dallies, including 2 crew for weather reconnaissance , total flight time: 46 hours. 32 mins.
Losses - 3 crew members did not return from a combat mission, of which - ml. lieutenant Gavrilov, senior lieutenant Mezin, ml. Lieutenant Gudimchik was hit by flak fire, two more crew did not return from the combat mission, their whereabouts were not established.

Conclusion: None of the German claims have been confirmed by German archives. The only combats potentially identified are those of Hptm Wilhelm Batz between LaGGs of the 129th IAD escorting Il-2s of LA 182 Shad.

Overclaiming rate: 100%, certainly linked to the weather conditions altering the discernment of German pilots...

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hi Folks,
On October 26, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 76 GvShAP lost Il-2m3, c/n: 9743 (Shapovalov+) to flak.
16 VA, 234 IAD, 157 IAP lost Yak-3, c/n: 1811 (Batov+)

Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Hello Gabor, thanks to help to the work.

Yes, the 1 GvShAD lost a Il-2, but they don't fly at 11h to 11h30 (german times), then concerning the luftwaffe's victories it's doesn't match. From my memory this days the 4th VA loosed only one Yak-9

Concerning rhe 16 VA, she operated in the Warsaw aera.

The question could be asked for the 4 VA, including few divisions (of memory, the 233 ShaD and the 309 IAD (LA5/Yak3/YAk9)) operated in the NW of Augustow. that is to say at the hinge between the 1st VA and the 4th VA

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Yes, 16 VA, 157 IAP Yak-3, c/n: 1811 was lost at Warsaw-NE, ~27-30km indeed.

Interestingly Yak-3, c/n: 1711 (the previous plane on the assembly line in batch No.11 in the Saratov factory) was flown by Capt. Koldunov (Post-war Chief of the Soviet Air Defense) at this time in the 17 VA in Yugoslavia, participating the infamous Nis incident with American P-38s of the 82 FG.

Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

wouldn't it be rather on November 7 that the 659th IAP of the 288 IAD shot down 4 P-38s in Serbia?

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/proarm/n...083e7d9f7a96cd

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Yes, that's the case, but only 3 American attackers went down to the Yaks, the 4th went down to flak. Capt. Koldunov -risking his life- pulled up to the P-38 leader in his Yak-3, c/n: 1711 signaling to finish their rampage. See his plane in the 17 VA's (288 IAD) Order of Battle on January 1, 1945 (TsAMO RF) at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194997...h/51875850217/

Gabor

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

IIRC it was the opposite and only one, if any, P-38 was lost to Yaks, the rest to AA.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

I have only three MACRs for losses this date for the 82nd FG.

MACR 9695, at 1030 hours, Capt Charles King, flak, evaded
MACR 9694, at 1100 hours, 2nd Lt Philip Brewer, DED, Yak-9
MACR 9696, at 1100 hours, 2nd Lt Eldon Eugene Coulson, DED, Yak-9

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

Yes Frank, you are right, 3 not 4. My son even made a video about this incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTT9FGPTwEc

Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
 

October 27, 1944

The Luftwaffe claims 6 victories today.

Ltn Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 La5 25561 at 200m - Hardtek (7 km NE Goldalp) 13.35
Ltn Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 La5 25561 at 2500m - Hardtek (7 km NE Goldalp) 13.39

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25529 at 1200m (Dakehnen – 10 km N Goldap) 14.15

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25533 at 3000m (Ballupönen-25 KM SE gumbinnen) 14.23

Oblt Rudolf Trenkel 2/JG52 Yak3 25583 at 800m. (Goldap) 15.10
Ltn August Rieckhoff 2/JG52 Yak3 25586 at 1500m. (Goldap) 15.11


Losses of the 1st VA: 1 Il2 (311 ShAD) destroyed by the Flak (from a tank), 1 Yak-3 (1st OIAP "Normandy") and 1 Yak-9 (909 IAP, 130 IAD) shot down by the air force enemy, and 1 Yak-9 (909 IAP, 130 IAD) and 2 La5 missing (of the 330 IAD).

At first reading, there are therefore 6 Luftwaffe claims for 4 Soviet losses. Let a ratio of an overclaiming rate of 33%

Now let's look in detail at the Soviet losses.

The 303rd IAD to a Yak-3 of the 1st OIAP "Normandy" (Cptn Cuffaut) shot down by enemy aircraft and 1 La7 reported missing (Ltn Rakov, 523 IAP) during 5 dogfights. 2 wins 1 me-109 and 1 FW 190.
1st OIAP "Normandy": 3 aerial combat, Captain Cuffaut, following an aerial combat judged by some to be imaginary, parachutes during a mission carried out between 5:10 p.m. and 5:50 p.m. 8 km from Goldap. This incident does not correspond to any German claim, the overclaiming rate therefore increases to 50%

523rd IAP: On a mission from 8:25 to 9:00 a.m. Ltn Rakov on an La-7 or La-5, not finding foggy terrain to parachute into. This loss cannot therefore be attributed to the Luftwaffe, so the overclaiming rate now reaches 66%.

The 129th IAD protects the operations of the 182nd and 277th ShAD, not encountering enemy aircraft. No Losses

240th IAD: no encounter with enemy fighters. No loss.

The 130th IAD have 1 Yak-9 lost in aerial combat and 1 other missing, during two aerial combats. She claims 2 victories 1 me-109 and 1 FW 190.
909 IAP:
From 4:35 p.m. to 5:23 p.m., Yak-9s of the 909th IAP carried out an Il2 protection mission of the 956 ShAP in the Gross Dunaïken sector (20 km south of Goldad) Graboven (16 km south of Goldap). At 5:20 p.m. at 7 km SW of Goldap (Torfbrukh) a fight took place with Me 109s and two planes (Ltn Mïots and Safonenko) were reported missing, according to the crews of the Il-2s, one of the pilots parachuted in.

Oblt Rudolf Trenkel 2/JG52 Yak3 25583 at 800m. (Goldap) 15.10
Ltn August Rieckhoff 2/JG52 Yak3 25586 at 1500m. (Goldap) 15.11

Note 1: It's not that easy to "avoid yakolevs with radiators" ;)

Note 2: In the same sector at a close time, since he took off at 5:10 p.m. to perform the Goldap, Gumbinnen, Stallupönen circuit, Captain Cuffaut was "dejected". Nevertheless, in a typewritten account (countersigned) from the time, of which I have the original, Captain Cuffaut reports having heard the Soviets before the fight signal the presence of enemy aircraft. Which seems to indicate that the claim relates to a Yak-9 of the 909th IAP.

330th IAD: carries out 6 flights to protect the reconnaissance of the 117 OPKAP which carries out 2 missions of artillery fire corrections.
-609 IAP: The regiment in the period 13.00-16.40 flew to escort 4 Il-2 to photograph the front edge of the enemy defense in the Goldap-Gubenen area. A total of 13 sorties were flown, with 9 hours 50 minutes of flight.
Drop the tasks.
In the targeted area, ZA and MZA came under fire.
Enemy air combat losses shot down 2 FV-190 aircraft.
There are no losses and losses of IL-2.
7 La-5 in the period from 15:50 (SU) to 16:40 (SU), flew to escort 2 Il-2 to often photograph the edge of the enemy defense in the Griboven (?)-Stulgen (Hasenrod) area. The mission ended in the area of ​​Fresten (Flesten 7 SE from goldap?) and was met by 6 FV-190, with which they were on the h-3000 mt. An aerial battle began, which lasted 10 minutes. in the region of Tuttenen (?) . As a result of air combat at a distance of 80-120 meters from the second burst, S-Lieutenant Maidanik shot down 1 FV-190, which fell in the Wilhelmsberg area, the second FV-190 was shot down by a foreman who Kushnerov, fell in the Tuttelen region.

(The report being handwritten, some toponyms could not be identified)

In all likelihood the pilots of 609 IAP clashed with those of III/JG52.

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25529 at 1200m (Dakehnen – 10 km N Goldap) 14.15 (GER).

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25533 at 3000m (Ballupönen-25 KM SE gumbinnen) 14.23 (GER).

161 IAP: carries out missions of protection of the bombers of the 6th Gv BAD in the Stallupönen-Pillkallen sector. No encounter with the enemy. Two planes landed at nearby airfields (possibly the La-5s reported as not mission income.

927 IAP: No information available.

The 311th ShaD at 1 Il2 destroyed by the Flak.

1 Gv ShAD - 240 IAD: The morning weather in the area was bad: overcast, H-50-100m. , visibility 1-2 km. A pair took off at 1:52 p.m. for weather reconnaissance. The cloud cover had increased slightly, but it was still impossible to work in groups.
Performs attack missions in the Pillkallen sector from 4:45 p.m. to 5:50 p.m. No Loss.

311 ShAD - 130 IAD, Performs from 15:50 to 17:20 attack missions in the sector south of Goldap. 1 Il-2 shot down by a tank.

277 ShAD – 129 IAD, Performs from 8:00 a.m. to 5:12 p.m. attack missions in the Gumbinnen sector, Alt Katenau, Pillkallen. no loss

182 ShAD: two weather reconnaissance flights, no losses.

Conclusion: For this day the overclaiming rate seems to be at 66%. To be 100% certain, it would be necessary to be able to identify the adversaries of Ltn Färber of JG52. Nevertheless, there is a very low probability that his two victories are corroborated by Soviet archives.

Intermediate balance sheet from October 22 to 27, 1944: for 46 victories claimed by the Luftwaffe, 4 were confirmed by Soviet losses. This leads to an overclaim of 91%, however, it is possible that this figure is reduced by possible interactions between the units of the Luftwaffe and the 4th Soviet VA.

It is also highly probable that if Laurent RIZZOTTI continues to have the sympathy of us to share his work on German losses, we will arrive at such a very high rate of overclaiming among Soviet pilots and especially among French pilots of the Normandie-Niemen.