He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Hi, I'm looking for clarification as to the loss of the above a/c.
I appear to have conflicting information.
I have the following:

He111 8/KG55 G1+DS Ofw. Bernhard Hickel and crew baled out uninjured when their a/c crashed due to engine failure at Breteuil, NE. of Beauvais, France.
( Source KG55 In Focus book by Hall and Quinlan pg.90.)

He111P-2 StabIII/KG55 G1+DS W.Nr 1731. Oblt.Wolfgang Witte baled out severely injured
when his a/c crashed due to engine failure 10km. south of L' Aigle , west of Dreux, France.
( Source Luftwaffe Officer Careers for Wolfgang Witte via De Zeng and Stankey

Could anybody help with the right detail.
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Oblt. Witte was injured while leaving the aircraft by parachute. Beobachter from Stab III/KG 55. NVM does not state that the He 111 crashed.
Junker

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Hi Junker, many thanks for your reply. Alas not much clarification as to the identity.
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Steve

According to BoB Combat Archive Vol 11 the aircraft was WNr 1731 from Stab III./KG 55
Pilot was Ofw Bernhard Wickel (baled out) and BO Oblt Wolfgang Witte (who also baled out, wounded).
The rest of the crew also baled out seemingly without any further problems but are unknown.

There is a mentioning of a 9./KG 55 aircraft (WNr 3353) having been damaged by AA-fire over London,
but has probably nothing to do with the above.

I think we can safely say that the two G1+DS are one and the same.
Hall/Quinlan was probably focused on the identifier S (8.St) when making their own list.

Cheers
Stig

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Hi Stig many thanks for your reply.

I don't have issue 11 of the BoB combat archive but I would think this is the most up to date analysis of Luftwaffe losses for this period.
Their naming of Ofw.Wickel is wrong though, most certainly is Bernhard Hickel a long serving pilot with KG55 and can be found easily if you look at losses from the French Campaign and on 13.5.40 when he was involved in the loss of He111P-2 G1+HS at Vendresse, France.

I tend to agree that the two losses are indeed one, but the aircraft and Hickel are from 8/KG55 and Witte may have been with the StabIII/KG55 and filled in as a crew replacement.?
Perhaps Matti Salonen as clues to the location or Ekm No's for units?
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

This a mystery also to me. Bernhard Hickel had an EM issued by III./KG 55 and Wolfgang Witte an EM issued by Stabsstaffel/KG 55. So, no help.

The locations I have are quite near to each other. Witte's He 111 "10 km südlich L'Aigle, 42 km westlich Nonancourt" and Hickel's "Breteuil 25 km südwestlich Evreux". Again problematic, because I don't know, if the locations are crash locations or the locations of parachute jumps. Another degree of difficulty comes from the fact that there is also another Breteuil in France, 15 km westlich Montdidier, which is far from Witte's crash.

I would leave these losses open until more info is found.

Matti

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Thanks for confirming that Wickel's name really was Hickel.

The dilemma facing any historian with regard to German losses are to know what they really say.
Matti seems to put his "finger" right at the problem.
In this case are we talking about the aircraft's crash place or are we talking about where the two
mentioned individuals came down?

If a crew perish in a crash it is quite obviously the same place, but in a case like this?

How long time did it take to bail out of a He 111, and in which order did they do so?

Whatever I still believe we are only talking about one aircraft and not two

Cheers
Stig

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

GQM says III/KG 55 crashed bei Laigle due to engine trouble. Aufschlagbrand 100%. Injured Oblt Witte, rest unharmed. He 111 P Wnr. 1731. No Vkz given. And it's the only loss suffered by III/KG 55 that date. So I agree that they shared the same aircraft.
Junker

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Many thanks chaps for your information regarding this loss, I'm quite confident
now that this is one and one only loss and Witte and Hickel were of the same crew. I think we can now put a line under this and move on.
Thank you to everybody who contributed to this post, it is appreciated.
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

GQM states WNr. 1731 not 1713!

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

Norbert

Junker knows that. He just forgot to take his gloves off....:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

:) corrected.
Junker

Re: He111P-2 W.Nr 1731 lost 7.9.40 III/KG55
 

I have:
1941-07-15, 8./KG 27, He 111 P-2, 1713, 1G+HS, Ukraine
Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
1940-09-07, 8./KG 55, He 111 P-2, 1731, G1+DS, 10 km südlich L'Aigle, 42 km westlich Nonancourt
Absturz infolge Motorschaden und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.

Source for both is NVM.

Matti