Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi all,

as I'm sorting through my photo archive on this type of aircraft, I'd like to match the photos directly to specific production numbers - is there somewhere a list of all Glens used in the French Air Force with there fate- magazine article, book, etc.?

From net, I have this link with aircraft list, but there are info just about the total lost.

https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...artin-167F.htm

Any information is welcome

Faenor

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Well, I have not come across a specific book dealing with the Martin 167 (Maryland).
A number of books/articles exist of course but it is a tricky situation, since some aircraft just seems to
disappear.

What is known is that the French ordered 345 Martin 167F-1/2/3 and they should have been assigned
No 1 - 345.
What is also known is that the French received No 1 - 234
Also known is that the British took over the French order from No 284 and up

The problem aircraft are those in between, ie No 235 - 283.
From what I have gathered there are five unaccounted aircraft in that later batch which we simply
don't know where they ended up.

The "villain" in the equation is the vessel 'Jean-Louis Dreyfus' which carried 26 Martin 167F to France in July
1940 but ended up in Liverpool with its cargo. Had we known exactly what was onboard, there would
have been no problem, but we don't!

France received for certain
No 236, 250, 259, 260, 263-266, 268-269, 272-278, 283 + five unknown.

The 26 aircraft onboard Dreyfus were given RAF s/n BS421 - 428 and BS760 - 777, and only BS777 is known
to have been ex No 262

Source: Air Arsenal by Phil Butler and Dan Hagedorn

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Malcolm Laird of Ventura Publications wrote an e-book on the Martin 167 (in French and British service) way back in the 1990s. Perhaps you could contact him on his website and see if he has any details.

https://www.venturapublications.com/


...geoff

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

From what I have read in the AB RAF Serial Number books and the AB book on Lend- Lease, which gives a little history of the Maryland and the French order for the Glenn Martin 167F.

Their order was for a total of 245 aircraft in two batches.

115 for early 1939 and a second for 130 after the declaration of the War.
Their first aircraft was delivered in December 1939.
By May 1940 they had seventy seven in service.
At the end of hostilities they had 245 aircraft, many still in their delivery boxes. Some 40 aircraft are thought to have been lost in the fighting.

In regard to those Maryland I's in the BJ421 - BJ428.
These were delivered in January 1941 from the ex French contract F-272.
BJ421,423,425,427 served with 69 Sqdn.
BJ428 went to serve with the FFAF.
And BJ422,424,426 were lost at sea. Not sure if this was during delivery to the UK or after delivery and lost during delivery to the ME ?

BS760 to BS777 were delivered in January 1941 from the ex French contract F272. BS771 and BS775 were lost at sea on 27/02/1941.

50 Maryland I's AR702 to AR751 from the French Contract F272 were delivered between July 1940 and January 1941.

2 Martin 167F's impressed on arrival from Tunisia, AX670 ex 102 and AX671 ex 82. However the RAF serial number's were not carried on these two aircraft.

2 Martin 167F's diverted to the RAF from the French con were delivered in December 1940. AX689 ex 1174 and AX690 ex1170 both served with 39 Sqdn.

2 Martin 167F's diverted to the RAF from the French Contract were delivered in December 1940. AX692 ex 1167 and AX693 ex 1173.

1 Martin 167F diverted to the RAF from the French contract was AX696 ex 1191 which went on to serve with the SAAF.

150 Maryland II's AH280 to AH429 from the French Contract F272 were delivered between March 1941 and March 1942.

61 Martin's were given UK serials. 284 to 310 312 to 345 to the UK while 311 went to the Middle East.

So if you take the 50 AR's, the five AX's and the BJ's 421,423,425,427 and 428 that gives 60 then 311 that went to the ME totall's 61.

The 150 in the AH serial range were later deliveries.

Oh yes there were at least three others,
HK 836, probably ex French.
HK845, Presumed escaped from Vichy AF, Soc 22/02/1942.
HK865, impressed, probably ex Vichy AF.

Hope that this is of some use.
All the best,
Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Alex

All sources at hand says the French ordered 345 aircraft
Contract 1 (Marché No 650/9): 115 c/n 879 - 993
Contract 7 (Marché No 650/9 add on): 100 c/n 994 - 1093
Contract 35 (Marché No 12/0): 130 c/n 1096 - 1225

If your sources only mention 245 they clearly have missed the add on order for 100 above

I have pretty detailed data of the French use of the type, but I have not tabulated it and it takes
too long to do so at this moment

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
Take another look at the link that Faenor provided in his first post. It definitely says 245, not 345.
I thought your 345 was a typo but seems not.

Also this website has some Martin 167F details -

http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/a22_2.html

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Stig, Alex, Geof - thank you for sharing your knowledge, links and just being cooperative - much appreciated! Thank you again

Faenor

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hmm
Actually didn't notice that, but as you say it is wrong.
I wonder how the site tries to explain 245 ordered and up to No 266 aircraft listed?
Did the Yanks throw in a "few extra" just to say thanks? :)
No they missed out the extra 100 for some reason and then stopped thinking...
Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

This may help to answer your question Stig.

AH205 to AH279.(75 aircraft).
Serial numbers allotted by BAC ( British Air Commission) apparently for possible purchases which never took place.

So maybe 25 of the 100 aircraft did get to France, or were retained in the USA for a short while before becoming part of a later delivery to the RAF, SAAF or Middle East and being renumbered with a different
serial number ???

From AB's AA100 - AZ999 (2nd Edition).
AH205 to AH279 Allotted to 75 Martin Maryland I's purchased in USA but serials not used.

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
I have just found the following.

"The 50 "ex-French" aircraft AR702 to AR751 were delivered directly to the British via Canada between July 1940 and January 1941 with AR720 going to the Admiralty on 28 Oct 1940.

The AR aircraft were originally allocated serials AH205 to AH279 by the BAC in Washington. Those serials were never applied and instead the AR serials were allocated by Air Ministry in London on arrival. The French numbers in the course of delivery were 216-345 and the British took over nos 284 to 345 in the USA. At the time some of these aircraft were already in crates at the French Commission's Weehauken depot awaiting shipment and were purchased directly by the British whilst the rest of the aircraft were still to be completed. However they were supposedly all fitted with British equipment and painted before delivery. The "missing" seven aircraft have never been accounted for.

The aircraft which were on board Jean-Louis Dreyfus (actually in transit to France and diverted to UK) included 26 Marylands from the following batches 235, 237-249, 251-258, 261, 262, 267, 270, 271 and 279-282 but these were all stored crated at Burtonwood after arrival in July 1940 and were eventually allocated serials in the BJ421-BJ428 and BS760-BS777 range. In addition there were 6 "escapers" allocated additional RAF serials".

The full thread can be seen here -

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/...rtin-maryland/

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Thanks Alex

Against better judgement I have begun a compilation of all known facts I have regarding the French
Martin 167F (aka Martin 167-A3).

There are some quite good arrival lists, especially to Casablanca where most of them ended up.
The unit in charge E.A.A. 301 kept records up until the armistice (last recorded receipt was No 218)

At this stage does anyone know why aircraft No 2 - 13 were so late being accepted? EAA 301's all record
them in May/June 1940.

Also does anyone have any data for No 1?

With regard to French s/n vs Martin's c/n. Can anyone confirm that all the aircraft were painted up
in USA? At this stage I have assumed that they were and that the staff at Martin did the right thing
and painted them up in c/n order!

I will start with the RAF when I have finished this.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
It is my thoughts that the aircraft were painted in the US but I expect that the serial numbers would have been painted on them after arrival and rebuild ( if they were all transported in boxes) in France.

All the very best,
Hope that you will update us with your findings at some later date.

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Alex and Stig,

check this link:

http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/

There are few pics of 167F in NFM with date 1939/1940.

Some of the wrecks:
http://modelari.org/viewtopic.php?t=208

Faenor

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Thanks again Guys

Unfortunately it's difficult to ID any Martin's unless you have a very good photo.

The only pic of interest in Faenor's post is the one which shows a possible Matricule Militaire number
under the wings.
Maybe the Martins did take up the range U-101 to U-215 after all!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
The photos shown in the links seem to me to show that the aircraft were delivered from the US in an unpainted state and the camouflage added when in Europe and/or Algeria.

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

It's possible Alex, but it also shows them to carry full French markings and possibly the MM number.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi, I overlooked one.
A Martin 167
RAF serial number DD825
Ex Vichy AIR Force, escaped to Gibraltar.
No evidence of further use.

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

How about the '167's that were used by the French Navy, 50 or so as I understand it.
We're they a separate Contract order of the 167's or included in the numbers already given in this thread ?

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

My thoughts on Production.

Glenn 167 (Maryland I).
French
115
100 ( 25 to France, 75 to Britain).
130
Total 345.
France
270
Britain
75

Maryland II
Britain
150
Total 150

Total production
345 + 150 =495

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Alex
We know exactly how many Martin 167s that were built

c/n 876 (1)
c/n 879 - 1093 (215)
c/n 1096 - 1225 (130)
c/n 1827 - 1976 (150)

Total 496 (so very close)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
I forgot to include the prototype :)

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Yep, you did Alex.... :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Just a quick update

I have by now a pretty good idea what happened to all the 345 French ordered aircraft up to the end of 1940.

The statistics as presented by one member of Air Britain does not entirely fit the bill so to speak, but
since I am generally a bit suspicious about statistics anyway, I am not too worried....

There is a ledger preserved by SHAA in France which confirms the Martins were painted with their French No
numbers before packing and shipping from New York.
They are almost all listed with their corresponding Martin c/n.

I am waiting to get (hopefully) some more news about the six SAAF Marylands which never
received any RAF s/n before delivery (SAAF 1601 - 1606)

If anyone at this stage can advise what HK865 (RAF) was I would be very happy. I am still waiting to get
its AM78 card (if it still exists).

Alex (in response to one of your earlier posts which I forgot to address)
The RAF serials AH205 - 279 (70 Marylands Mk I) were all canceled and never used. One source also
indicate they were in fact a follow on for the 20 Harvards AH185-204 but if
that was so it is so far unproven,
and bottom line is that not one of the allotted batch was ever used.
No connection to SAAF what so ever.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

perhaps of intrest to you collected ebay pictures https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...and-167.42298/

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Thanks Snautzer

Some new ones! Also located a separate topic on the XA-22.
There is an interesting photo showing what must be the prototype at Bolling Field in an unusual
camouflage.

Unfortunately most French aircraft are impossible to ID.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

The photo of the French Naval '167 with fuselage stripes. I seem to remember another French twin engined type that had such fuselage stripes. The colours were White and Red. Something to do with training or target tow but forget which.

The one with Luftwaffe markings was probably used as were other types as ground targets for the Allied Forces.

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
In regard to the Maryland's in the HK serial number range.

All that is in the AB HA100 - HZ999 book is as follows -

It does not specify Mk I or Mk II just "Martin 167 Maryland".

HK836 - origin unknown, no record, probably ex French.

HK845 - Presumed escaped from Vichy AIR Force, SOC 22.2.42.

HK865 - Impressed, probably ex Vichy AIR Force, no record of service found.

With regard to the SAAF Marylands 1601 - 1606.
I assume that these would have been Mark I's rather than Mk II's.

So from the AB books and "85 Years SAAF". Here are serial numbers that served with SAAF that did not receive SAAF numbers as far as is known. So 1601 to 1606 may be in these numbers ?

Maryland I's
BS773
BS777
AR722
AR749

Maryland II's
AH283
AH286
AH287
AH288
AH341
AH344
AH349
AH350
AH351
AH352
AH354
AH358
AH359
AH361
AH362
AH363
AH364
AH365
AH366
AH370
AH381
AH382
AH383
AH384
AH385
AH396
AH397
AH398
AH400
AH401
AH404
AH405

Also I notice in "85 Years" that following -
SAAF number - Squadron - four digit number - RAF number.
ie
1608 - 24 - 1851 - AH304.
So was "1851" a Martin construction number or a French number ? It is not explained in the book as far as I can see.

All the best
Alex

PS:
Re your ref to AM78, AIR 78 is lists of names .
I think you may mean AIR 81 which is aircraft and airmen accidents/losses ?

Here is a link to Air81 Marylands up to the end of 1942,(63 in all). Not all the serial numbers are correct but a mix of RAF and SAAF or maybe French number ?
This happens across-the-board for all aircraft types unfortunately.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...rt=1&id=C16484

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Alex

Yes, I have Winston's book :)
No the RAF aircraft received were used in combat, a long way from South Africa itself and they never carried
any SAAF s/n
The column with the four digit numbers (aka 1851) are indeed the Martin c/n.
SAAF 1601-1606 are deff Mk I.
They were all assigned during the autumn of 1940 before any Mk II had reached anyone.
HK836 and HK845 were both captured French aircraft at Libreville during the Gabon campaign. They were
former No 109 and 110 respectively.
However HK865, if really ex Vichy, fails to identify itself, can't see any Vichy aircraft that fits. Anyone?

The AM78 form is the actual RAF movement card, not the accident one. If you look at one you will see
that in the left bottom corner it says A.M. Form 78 (A.M. for Air Ministry I assume)

There actually is one more mysterious SAAF Maryland, SAAF 1682, which lacks all kind of ID.
That one may well have been one with a former RAF s/n sent south when the type went out of front line use!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Hi Stig,
See here re Form AM78

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/09901.php

Seems Middle East and Far East did not generally have full details.
So you may not get anything useful.

Alex

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

All interested

I have now "finished" my Maryland Mk I list.
Unfortunately it has proved impossible (for me) to get it 100% correct.
Far too many "dark horses" running around.

Reason for that are no doubt the lack of 100% detail within the French preserved documents.

As an example we have four aircraft mentioned just once by Cuny/Denel in their writings about the type.
No dates just a statement of arrival into Casablanca.
No 236, 250, 259 and 263.
If my theory is right, two of these must have been diverted to UK after all.
Due to various reasons I have discarded both No 259 and 263.

Other aircraft which simply vanish are
No 267, 270, 271, 279, 281 and 282
They get no mentioning at all by Cuny/Denel and neither do they fit in as delivered to Britain.
We know they are not the six sent directly to Takoradi (they are all numbered except one)

Due to this it has been impossible to establish exactly which six Mk I that went to SAAF as 1601 - 1606.
It is easy to think they fit the six 'vanished' French aircraft but if they really are then we have six
sent to Britain that gets missing instead.

I still don't have a clue what and from where HK865 came from. Syria/Lebanon is mentioned.

Anyone interested in my present list can contact me off forum with their e-mails and I will send
it over
Of course if anyone can add anything at all to the problem aircraft above, please feel free to do so.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

One question about Martin 167F

In 1944/45 seven Martins were used by Goupement Patrie (GB 1/34, then GB 1/31) in Western France

One source gives the serial nos as 30, 75, 127, 153, 162, 182 and 744

Any idea what 744 refers to? Is it just 74, with the last digit repeated by accident, or is it something else?

Regards

Martin

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Martin
I have a suspicion that 744 may refer to the British s/n AR744.
Looking at its AM 78 card it was SOC 20.6.1943 plus an odd additional note:
"Brought back on charge" with the authorization dated 18.2.1944, all of which in turn has been crossed
over!

As we all know the French held those strange letters before the s/n in great "contempt" (:D) and very
often never bothered recording them.
Not impossible it may have been turned over to the French

Does that fit in with your dates as well?

No 74 is not possible, shot down during the French campaign
No 44 could be a possibility, if it was repaired after its very bad landing at Etampes in 1940.
Aircraft does not show up anywhere during 1941 though.... (that is how far I have gone through
my data available)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Thanks for the suggestions

I only pick them up at Mouzaiaville when GB 1/34 formed in July 44 and then in France from August 1944 when they start flying recon missions in the south west

I have seen a reference to four Martins being transfered to the Free French in North Africa from the SAAF. That could account for AR744

One other anomaly, 30 is also sometimes listed as 30908, does this fit with a constructors number in any way?

Martin

Re: Glenn Martin 167 in French service 1939-1940
 

Well Martin

With regard to No 30 and/or 30908 I can confirm Martin c/n 908 correspond to Type 167F No 30!
Interesting way of identification....

Cheers
Stig