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Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hello/Bonjour,
Not easy, knowing that there is not much data for that year. I am looking for information about a plane that went down in flames West of the town of Issoudun, in central France, early November 1944 (...between the 1st and the 5th). Of the five crew members, four died in the crash and one was taken to hospital. The plane was carrying weapons, medical supplies and mail. Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
If TG 30 I have He 111 losses 2 Nov 44 (5 crew missing), 6 Nov 44 (5 killed)
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Heavy losses!
Nov – Dec 44: these night supply operations by TG 30 continued from Zellhausen through March 1945, although the Staffeln were often dispersed at nearby airfields, such as Klein-Welzheim, Gross Ostheim and Oberschenkenbach. During November and December a total of 19 He 111s were lost to all causes while on night flights to the Atlantic and Channel fortresses, and to Strasbourg in Alsace and Bastogne/Belgium during the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge). L. deZ. |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Thank you gents for your answers, I now know the name of this German unit. Below is a translation of the newspaper article that relates the incident (dated 4 November 1944).
A Kraut plane crashes near Issoudun On Tuesday night, at about 23 hours (or 11:00 p.m.), a German plane crashed in flames at Villemont, commune of Saint-Aoustrille, 3 kilometers southwest of Issoudun and 200 meters from the road to Châteauroux. Four of the occupants were burned; the fifth, injured, is in the Sacré-Coeur hospital. The plane was carrying weapons and medical equipment to be dropped in the Gironde. A container was found intact; it contained only mail. The Issoudun fire department went to the scene. It is believed that the plane was flying very low and struck the power line. Any chance to find the identity of the crew members? I have not found anything in the lists of German soldiers buried in Châteauroux or Bourges. Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
So, what was the unit according to your data?
If the newspaper from 4 Nov 1944 (a Saturday) says that the a/c crashed on Tuesday 23.00 hrs than the a.c crashed on the night of 31.10/01.11. |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hi/Bonjour John,
According to the answers it must be a plane of the Transportgeschwader 30. The date (Tuesday) also seems likely based on the article. best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hello Fred,
Ahh, okay, we all assume it must be TGr 30 as that is the most logical candidate. The problem is there is no matching loss. But again, not all data survived. John |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
There were no losses on 4 Nov 44 for TG 30. There was a loss on 2 Nov 44 but the mission was "Kanal Festung". However, as John has suggested, there was a loss on 31 Oct 44 of Wk Nr 701204 S3+LH whose mission was "Atlantik Stuetzpkte". A quick check of the VDK site confirms pilot Fw Walter Merz was buried at Mont-de-Huisne but was killed at................Issdoudun. Rest of the crew was:
Uffz Josef Huemer-B Uffz Ludwig Endress-BF Ogefr Heinrich Dziuba-BW Uffz Bruno Speer-Bd |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
701204 crashed near Royan according to reports. 2 man of crew buried, remainder missing (crashed in sea)
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
He 111 H-20 W.Nr. 701455 of TGr. 30 was reported "missing since 29/10. According to Philippe Cannone, it had crashed at Issoudun on the night of 31 October/1 November 1944. I have no information on the crew however.
CX/MSS/R355(C)P.S. to Larry: added to those losses you mention are many, many damage incidents (usually 10–20%) during landing or take-off and reported in ULTRA. P.S. to Frédéric: what was the name of the newspaper you quoted from? |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
If we take into account the day mentioned in the newspaper article and the date of publication of said article the loss of October 31, 1944 could match. Along with this loss, crew names are mentioned? ...the ones killed?
Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
My answer went too fast. Sorry gents (!), I didn't see your answers before.
Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Yes my post 8 answers it all for you! NVM says 701204/S3+LH of 1 Staffel. Took off Strassburg-Enzheim
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Merci beaucoup Chris (...Great answer!).
Nick, I am going to ask my friend about the name of the newspaper in which this article appeared. I only got the excerpt. Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Chris, good catch on the VDK. Strange, reported crash location (Royan) and Issoudun are far apart. We should check burial status of all crew members.
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Quote:
CX/MSS/R356(C),11 |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
John- your statement that it was Tuesday 31 Oct helped clinch it!
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Thank you all for your answers, and I will come back to you soon to give you the name of the newspaper.
Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
So for the crew;
Fw. Walter Merz (08/10/1918); Buried Mont-de-Huisnes, Gruft 31, Grab 175 Uffz. Josef Huemer (27/09/1919): Missing Uffz. Ludwig Endres(s) (15/08/1923): Buried Mond-de-Huisnes, Gruft 31, Grab 173 Ogfr. Heinrich Dziuba (28/02/1922): Missing Uffz. Bruno Speer (02/05/1917): Missing Merz and Huemer are in VDK database with Issoudun, so that is a match. Huemer is in the VDK database as missing with Start in Strassbourg-Entzheim. So, relatives must have inquired with VDK. None of the missing I can find in the DRK-Bildlisten. So, if everybody was killed it can be assumed they were buried at the same cemetery, probably as unknowns. So, Frederic, if you can trace the original burial location for Merz/Endres you might be able to solve some MIA cases. Grab 174 at Mont-d'Huisnes seems a good candidate already....:-) |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hi Nick, hi gents,
The newspaper article appeared in the "Nouvelle République du Centre-Ouest" (issue of 4 November 1944). I will now try to find out where the deceased crew members were buried, as they do not appear on the list of German burials of Châteauroux. Nor Bourges, so perhaps Issoudun. Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Quote:
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hi/Bonjour,
I found all the names of Fw. Walter Merz crew in the book quoted in source with the excerpt below. Hence my surprise! We are talking here about the loss of an He 111 of the T.G. 30 but the crew of Fw. Merz seems to belong to the K.G. 55 (according to the book : 8. Staffel). So ? A crew from the latter unit, flying on a plane belonging to the T.G. 30? The unit that oversees these missions? Testimony Wilhelm Mylius - On 11 September at 20.00 hours we took off for the first time from Zellhausen to Strassburg, a staging airfield, where the crews received flight instructions and target documents, while the technicians loaded the machines with supply containers. [source: Kampfgeschwader 55 "Greif", Wolfgang Dierich – 1975] Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
It was a TGr 30 aircraft being flown by an 8./KG 55 crew. They had obviously been transferred as prior to this to meet the demand, EKM were not III./KG 55 prior to this and for just a week after they were 7 & 8./KG 55
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Thanks for the clarification Chris. By the way, what does EKM stand for?
Regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Crews were transferred from KG 55 to TGr. 30 as early as June 1944. The II. and III./KG 55 had been wihdrawn from the Eastern Front at the end of the Summer and joined in supplying the fortessses (they had recent experience of supply drops to German troops cut off by the Red Army). Transfers of aircraft continued through into November with four of a promised 10 being flown to Bavarian airfields on the 8th.
One example: CX/MSS/T356/44 |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Thanks Nick, it's much clearer to me now.
Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Erkennungsmarke=service number essentially from which you can work out the unit
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
OK, merci beaucoup Chris.
Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
..this might be of some interest. An extract from an old Jean-Louis Roba two-part feature on TGr. 30 in "Avions".
" Les 27 et 31 octobre, deux autres appareils sont portés disparus dans des vols vers les poches. Le premier sur Dunkerque, le second sur Royan. Ce dernier, peut-être victime d'un ennui technique, va s'écraser au lieu-dit "Villement", à l'entrée d'Issoudun, après avoir percuté une ligne électrique. Ce faisant, il plonge dans le noir une partie de la ville et trouble une réunion du MLN (Mouvement de Libération Nationale) dont les orateurs rivalisent dans la harangue patriotarde. Quatre aviateurs auraient été tués. Le survivant blessé peut s'extraire de l'épave et sortir arme au poing et parachute en feu. Il sera très vite désarmé par un adjudant de la prévôté militaire. Il transportait, entre autres, des tracts destinés à relever le moral de la garnison de Royan encerclée.." |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
FalkeEins, merci beaucoup for this very interesting excerpt. After a call yesterday evening to an acquaintance living close to the city, I should have more details about the accident soon. I keep you posted.
Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hello/Bonjour,
Here is the testimony of a witness (M. Morand ) of the He 111 accident : "At this location, to supply the lime kilns, the high voltage line had been raised. The plane has hit the power line with a wing, slid from one pylon to another before crashing to the ground. In the light of the night, the fire lieutenant Ralet and the person in charge of the malthouse arrived in a van from the "Grande Malterie du Berry". In the night we could see flames illuminating the crash site, and a black cross on a wing of the plane was clearly visible. The ammunition from the machine guns exploded in a spray of fire. The airmen were burning up with the plane - you could see their bodies collapsing in their seats. From the house we heard a plane approaching at low altitude, then a loud noise. No more lights. Indistinct screams led us to discover, about 50 meters away, an airman, conscious, but apparently seriously injured. One of the aircrew members had miraculously managed to jump out of the plane before the crash, but not without damage. He was laid down on a small ladder that had been converted into a stretcher and was carried by rescue workers, with many complaints of pain, to the van that took him to the nearby hospital. The inhabitants of the village of Saint-Aoustrille opposed to have the bodies of the other four airmen being buried in their cemetery. They were temporarily buried on the spot, next to the site of the crash." (source: Centre de la Memoire d’Issoudun) I should receive a copy of the original document by mail soon. Warm regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Thanks for finding that account of what happened.
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Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
My pleasure Nick!
I do not have it in hands yet but if any of you would like a copy of the original document, feel free to ask me and I will send it to you. All the best, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hi/Bonjour,
Do we know the fate of the Bordschütze Uffz. Bruno SPEER? "Missing", nothing else? Website of the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge e. V., after my grave search, does give any information about a possible burial place. Latest discovery, Bordmechaniker, Ogefr. Heinrich DZIUBA, was the crew member who was taken to the nearby hospital, treated and then transferred to a prison camp (May 25, 1945). Best regards, Frederic |
Re: Supplies for Atlantic pockets(?) - Loss of early November 1944
Hi Frederic
Thanks for confirmimg that Dziuba was the man who baled out . I only got a partial NVM for this loss from WAST showing just columns 1-6 . But there is some 3 letter notation under Dziuba's name so I thought he might have been the survivor Regards Brian Bines |
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