Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

AFAI, on April 8,19 44, the 4th FG got 32 victories and suffered only 4 losts. From germany record list in Tonny wood's web site, some units had suffered serious losess.

III./JG54 , III./JG11, I./JG5 and III./JG3 lost 10, 11, 6, 5 planes respectively. The total lossses is about 78.
The losses included some aces such as Josef Zwernemann(128kills) and Ernst Maack (8 kills).
This is the very limited information I have.

Does anyone konw more information about which units had clashed with US 4th fighter group? I am surprised the luftwaffe's pilots should not be beaten so badly prior to D-days.


Thank you very much in advance.

Why? At this stage, the quality of the Luftwaffe was being worn down to a mere shadow of what it had once been.

In March 1944, the German Luftflotte Reich performed 3,672 combat sorties and lost 349 fighters. That equals a loss ratio of 9.4 %. (Prien, “JG 1/11”, p. 821)

These 3,672 combat sorties were flown against approximately 18,000 sorties by US 8th Air Force (including 8,773 heavy bomber missions; I don’t have totals for fighter escort missions, but usually by this time there were more escort fighters than heavy bombers on each mission), plus several thousand sorties over Germany and the Netherlands by the 15th AF and the RAF.

Even if the Americans lost more aircraft than the number of Luftwaffe aircraft they were able to shoot down, the sheer numbers made the US losses have a less serious impact. Because of the large numbers of aircraft deployed on each mission by the Americans, the loss ratio in 8th AF heavy bombers was 3.3 % in March 1944, and in the US fighter units it was even lower. Such a loss ratio can be sustained by any air force without having any negative effect on the quality of the crews.

Luftwaffe fighter pilot losses in March 1944 alone reached nearly 22 % of pilots present on 29 February 1944. In February 1944, nearly 18 % of the pilots present on 31 January 1944 had been lost. The losses surpassed the replacements, so rookies had to leave their pilot training schools before their training was completed and were sent into action - against numerically superior Allied air forces. What you see when you read about 8 April 1944 is the effect of all of this.

BTW - read 4 FG's story here - the book is online:

http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrlove...ed/frames.html

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

On April 8, 1944 the 4th, 357th and 355th were the groups engaging the LW from Celle to Uelzen to Gifhorn. The 4th was in the largest of the battles focused primarily at Celle to Brunswick.

BTW the LW controllers were smart enough to NOT engage in force within range of the P-47 groups of the 9th and 8th AF - all of which basically constrained to Penetration and Withdrawal escort to and from the Stuttgart to Hannover radius. That number of 8th AF P-47 FG's was 6 1/2 (352nd converting in late March/mid April.

Net - the LW could direct 200-250 s/e fighters to any 100 square mile area they chose to be able to find undefended bomb groups, or lightly defended groups and could count on not having to engage more than one Mustang or Lightning group - worst case two - until summer of 1944.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Drgondog, at what point in the air war between the US 8th FC and Luftwaffe is it safe to conclude that the 8th FC gained numerical superiority against the LW fighters units tasked with intercepting the former?
Thanks in advance.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Multiple losses from any single unit always suggest to me the possibility that they were bounced. In the case of a surprise attack, the relative strengths of each side would be less important and the best controllers in the world can't guarantee that one of their formations won't find itself in a disadvantageous position at some point in an action.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Bill aka drgongog always say how usaaf were always out numbered by the luftwaffe fighters, simply not so. even is the winter/spring of 1944. Just reading JG 11 diary tells me LW always behind the 8 ball vs usaaf heavies & escorts. Other West front JG units same deal.

Kind regards.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Possibly not but combat reports and veterans' accounts from all sides commonly reflect the perception of being outnumbered.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

If you have documentation that can prove otherwise, I would love to see it Oberst.
At the end of the day is reliable documentation the only kind of evidence that can prove which party is close to reality.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Why is when it comes to Luftwaffe, everybody wants proof, whereas when it comes to P-51 & USAAF, no proof required. It boggles my mind.

Anyways, read 'JG 11' by Marek J. Murawski, lots of answers in their. Lots of other books on this subject too.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

That is a tricky question.

If the LW was tasked to intercept 8th AF over Lowlands and France - then the LuftFlotte 3 was inferior numerically in Sept/Oct 1943 as all of 8th FC was capable of going to German border. In October 1943 the 4th, 56th, 78th, 352nd and 355th were operational - all P-47C/D's.

If the LuftFlotte Reich was the primary axis of dayfighter strength over Germany - and they delayed engaging until the P-47s were turning back from Dummer Lake to Frankfurt, then 8th FC reached 10-11 Long Range escort operational Groups by Ovtober 1944 - enabling approximately 500-550 long range escorts to be dispatched to deep targets.

If the question is Local superiority in which the LW could concentrate 200-250 s/e fighters on one or two bomb wings (like November 26 - Misburg) then only 40-100 USAAF fighers would be in position to defend, then I would say December/January marked the end of consistent ability to achieve local superiority anywhere in Germany.

After Bodenplatte and approximately mid January, 1945 the LW moved many squadrons to a line from Steinhuder Lake to Schweinfurt/Lechfeld.
That would be the point in time when nearly every mission, with the help of target area recon by the three Scout forces enabled concentrations of 3 or more long range fighter groups to bear anywhere along the bomber stream quickly. It is in this timeframe that the LW lost even local superiority.

The dominant factor in the crucial losses to USAAF in December 1943 through May 1944 (IMO) was the stupid directive from Goering to Not fight the US Escorts - go strictly for the bombers. The US fighter pilot became very accustomed to being the Aggressor which encouraged even smal formations of US fighters to attack - no matter the odds. The very tough and talented LW was by and large emasculated by that directive... then as losses skyrocketed in January through May - the replacement training was inadequate and the LW could not convert many bomber pilots to fighters because of Hitler.

Game of attrition over by April/May, 1944.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Personally, I want proof (especially in the form of contemporary documentation) whichever airforce is involved. Are you able to say how much original research Mr Murawski did for this book, and which sources he used?

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

I say it and I back it up. If you will personally start getiing and reading 8th AF Mission Summaries, spend the time looking at any FG Mission Board for those missions, note the P-47 Group limitations to go to Dummer Lake and return - or pick up returning bombers at Dummer Lake to Meppen - you will note how each long range escort fighter group is spread out to allocate group level resources along individual bomg divisions - each splitting up to branch to each separate target.

Failing to perform the diligence use logic and recall the mix of fighters available to the US 8th AF and further recall range limitations. Once you have grasped the fact that the P-47D short of the -25 (june 1944) was strictly limited to Meppen/Dummer Lake while flying escort, and Brunswick when untehered and flying a sweep. The reflect that even the P-38 could only get to Berlin while flying directly there with no weaving in close escort. Then reflect that only the Mustang could escort over Berlin, Posna, Brux, Schweinfurt and note the ORB for Mustang units in December, 1943 through May 1944

Next step, calculate the spread of Mustangs in coverage along a 100 mile stream inbound, along different target branches which spread the coverage out to one to two long range fighter groups per Division (250-400 bombers in a 30-40 mile trail - and figure out what the coverage/odds were when the controller put 200-250 fighters in a 5 cubic mile volume along the 40 mile trail.

The Luftwaffe controllers massed different Gruppes to attack points lightly defended, and did so successfully.

I don't have any images on photobucket so I can't show you what I mean.

I can upload on aircraft of WWII or armyairforces.com.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

I haven't see Murawski's JG 11 book, but I own copies of his JG 1, JG 27 Vol IV and JG 301 books, in fact booklets and those are based on rather limited number of second hand sources, there are 7 books in the bibliographia of JG 1 booklet, 9 books in the bibliographia of the JG 301 booklet and there is no bibliographia in JG 27 Vol IV but 34 endnotes at the end. Murawski seems to be very productive writer. At least his booklets are cheap and in the JG 27 booklet had mostly relied on Prien et al books on JG 27

Juha

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Why do Luftwaffe apologists always believe they were badly outnumbered by USAAF escorts? Is that the only way to explain defeat? Is it possible that they were consistently outfought - fighter to fighter - from November 1943 forward?

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Nick - if you will PM your email I will send you examples of Mission Summary reports (although Tony Woods has April 8, 1944 on his website.) and individual Mission Board maps.
http://don-caldwell.we.bs/claims/tonywood.htm
http://www.box.com/shared/5bbh5gc971

Regards, Bill

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Explain their defeat? You don't know? They were hammered into submission by the USAAF, combined with idiotic decessions from Goring/Hitler. Simple I would think.

As far as documents.. well, I do not know where Mr. Murawski got the information for his books, other then First Hand accounts from Luftwaffe fighter pilots, Second hand accounts, Units diaries and so forth.

Recent coversation with a good friend of mine:

"So where are we? only talking about p-51? I don't think so, more then a P-51 threat in the skies of Germany. More then just Allied fighters. Its the whole. And pilots think.. what to do? Engage escorts, engage heavies? Sometime you make the decission, sometimes the USAAF makes the decission. Either way I thought, this might be my last day. Either way, you can't make the right decission. Either way you just fight to live."

He went on about 2:1, 5:1, 10:1 ( including bombers ). But I think I missed the point of numbers. I just remember the sacrifice. My mistake and appologies for bring it up, carry on. :)

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Including bombers, the LW was outnumbered always by the 8th AF. The distinction is that the LW could engage or not - based on the conditions. When escort fighters entered the equation, the decisions much more complex - whether the numerical advantage was favorable or not.

One thing I will NEVER question is the courage or the skills of the German fighter pilot.

Having said that I see a lot of comments that denigrate the skill and courage of the US fighter pilot - particularly in the early days of long range escorts when they were not only fighting as 'underdogs' in context of numbers of fighters - but also flying 5 to 7 hour missions in lousy weather and tempermental airplanes - then dropping to the deck to attack heavily defended airfields.

The latter was twice as deadly to Mustangs as the 109/190 combined. Virtually 90% of the US Fighter Aces lost in combat were to German 20mm flak.

Very little credit is given concerning skill in taking off in low visibility, assembling in an organized way, achieving rendezvous, flying through bad weather and landing in bad weather and poor visibity - particularly when the training was largely in clear skies in the US.

As to achieving surprise or tactical advantage - only when sweeping ahead and catching LW assembling or taking off, or when landing - due to the extraordinary loiter time. Otherwise the LW controllers knew when the bombers were taking off, had a good feel for the fighters timetables and the fighters were always tethered to 0-5K altitude from the bombers and German fighters could normally assemble and climb an intercept course and time to be 2000-7000 feet above the American escorts and choose to fight - or not.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Cheers Bill, but no need. I've looked at few (single figures!) 8th AF mission reports myself, in the UK National Archives. I entirely get the point you're making. Alfred Price published a very enlightening USAAF diagram of the distribution of escorts many years ago in "Battle Over The Reich" which put a whole different slant on commonplace statements in books like "X hundred bombers took part, escorted by Y hundred fighters."

That kind of makes my point for me: the more you know about an author's sources the better able you are to judge the points they make. I posted before about perceptions of numerical inferiority which frequently feature in participants' accounts. Those accounts tell you how people felt, they don't necessarily tell you how things were. That's why some researchers spend years digging through files.

Mr Murawski is a very prolific author which doesn't suggest that he would be able to spend a vast amount of time researching any given title. Now this may be unfair: he could have an unusually high capacity for such work; he could have a team researching for him; he may have spent many years accumulating research which is only now appearing in his books. Nevertheless, my experience and that of other researchers I know is that original research takes a very long time to do.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Being an amateur military aviation enthusiast, my prime object of being part of this forum and discussion is to learn and absorb knowledge in the most possible objective and unbiased way by individuals who have a vast amount of knowledge and have been studying and scrutinizing this extremely complex subject for a very long time, perhaps longer than I’ve been alive.
I would like to reiterate the last statement on my earlier post, the value of reliable documentation to show the complete picture of events.
I thank you for the source you have offered me and will definitely take it into account.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Quite a load of information you have posted drgondog, perhaps much more complex for me to comprehend and analyze in a single read =)

To paraphrase and simplify things a little bit: number of bombers, escorts, their max operational range and distances were variables which dictated if LW fighters could achieve air superiority above specific points in the bomber streams or find themselves at a numerical disadvantage against US escorts given the statement that the combined bomber/escort armada always held a numerical superiority over the LW interceptor force.

When it comes down to the distance issue in raids deep into Nazi Germany, I can see how pivotal was the boost 8th FC received in terms of longer-range escort fighters than the early P-47 marks and their steady built-up in small numbers from early 1944 all the way to early 1945 when almost all FG had converted to P-51s, longer-range P-47s and P-38s.

I believe your last point about Hermann Goering and his ill-advised directive of not engaging escort fighters helped greatly in eroding the effort and effectiveness the LW could have achieved in this critical period of the air war over Germany when longer-range escorts were becoming available to 8th FC.

I would to thank you for taking your time in your reply and subsequently offer you my e-mail address in a PM in case you agree to send me the files you offered Nick.


Erick

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

send me your email addy and I will send you some examples.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

Based on preliminary review I believe the clashes in the Brunswick area between 8th AF FC and LW are as follows.

44th BG made their intended turns too short of the IP and as a result passed west of Brunswick in their SW leg. They were hit by JG11 primarily and Oblt. Josef Zwernemann Kaptain of 1./JG11 (?) was KIA by Mustang of 357FG west of Brunswick.

4th FG passed 2BD and swept the area in front and, near Celle, hit a force of 75+ (est) mixed FW 190s and Me 109s inbound from NE Celle. I think this was the JG3 and SturmStaffel 1. Some of the elements of this force passed the 4th and continued toward the B-24s where the 355th met them and another fight ensued between these German fighters and the 357FS/355FG.

The 44th BG suffered heavily as a reult of their navigation error and were hammered before elements of the 357th FG were able to engage.

On the way back, the P-47 escort assuming Withdrawal support on Holland border and engaged I./JG 26. Oblt. Karl Willius Kaptain 2./JG 26 went down in this fight as well as Lt. Irving Reedy 357/355FG returning from the Celle fight when he strayed into this battle.

In all approximately 250 LW fighters engaged ne Brunswick, west Brunswick and near Holland/German border. East of Dummer Lake, only Mustangs of the 4th, 355th and 357th engaged the LW. In addition to the 46 air to air Credits for these three groups, they destroyed another 14 on the ground at Celle and Gifhorn. These three groups lost four air, one mechainical and one flak.

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

What you have here, folks, is a perfect example of the 'diplomatic sidestep'.

In other words, just translate from English to Polish, and then back again if you are doing a double language book. Tell me about it...

And I'm not tilting at you, Nick, far from it. Just providing a little more clarification for those who may not know...

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

I took it as a tribute to the skills I developed during a long career in local government, John!

Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
 

I forgot that the 354th FG also was involved in this fight - they had 20 109s and FW 190s credited as destroyed..