Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Announcement today from the 'After The Battle' imprint of Pen & Sword:
https://i.imgur.com/0elpBY8.jpg

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Excellent news!

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Wow - just wow...

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

I wonder what the total page count will be across the four volumes.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Four volumes by 2024? Good luck all

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Just enough time for potential buyers to amass the money and find the shelf space perhaps!

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Plus the 7 (?) volumes Dilip Sarkar is doing on the BofB......

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Was After The Battle Publications bought by Pen & Sword?

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Outstanding opportunity for those who were too young to get in on the original Winston Ramsey Then and Now edition some 30 to 35 years ago!

L. deZ.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

ATB was bought by P&S

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

I am pleasantly surprised to the fact that ATB would still publish new books, great news !

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Well, well...
Are the EOE contributors going to be credited for their substantial contributions to the loss data?
Small sample:

2.8.40
Western Front

1./BordFlSt. 196 Arado Ar196A-2 (0066). Crashed on landing at Schellingwoude following anti-submarine patrol off the Dutch coast 10.32 p.m. BO Lt zur See Johannes Nowrat and FF Uffz Johannes Schminde both unhurt. Aircraft T3+CH 65% damaged - write-off. (KTB via RS)
(Note: Revised per 4/18/18 PC email)

John you should check the copyrights to this stuff...before it will be too late...

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

I would say it should not, Battle of Britain should only include the battle over Britain and its surrounding area , it should not include losses of RAF and Luftwaffe in the clashes over the sea near Europe mainland or the RAF's losses suffered in their bombing offense against German target in the Europe in the same time period of the the Battle of Britain, that should belong to another fought at the same time of BoB.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Who holds the EOE data? That project was never published.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Mars,
That was one minor example of what was supplied by many contributors in private email discussions to improve EOE loss lists, there are numerous other examples of losses and major amendments contributed by others that will undoubtedly be covered by the Battle of Britain Then and Now's area of interest.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Ed,
Larry's wife.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Thank you Robert.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

The blurb was put together by the 'Digital Marketing Team' at P&S either without reference to the contracts, or they have misread the contracts. The terms in the contract state all material to be delivered by the end of September 2024.

And thanks for your best wishes. Given the many decades or research, writing and publishing by those involved, both main and subsidiary, the date as shown above is achieveable.

Additional info as follows:
The original edition is now way out of date. And the original is 816 pages, so the updated edition will be close to 900 pages, as a rough estimate. This new figure factors in new additions like the Capel-Le Ferne monument, which didn't exist in 1980; a complete re-write of the VC section; 40+years of updates on every airfield; updates on the archaeology, including new digs such as the Rubensdörffer site, for example. Just so much new stuff that was gone over in minute detail in meetings that have been held. But we had to say nothing pending the full completion of the contracts. This completed updated edition is in 4 volumes, as the announcement says. Also, the publication of each edition will be staggered so that it is more 'customer-friendly' on the pocket. To publish a single volume with today's publishing costs would mean something north of £150, which is simply not feasible. With me being heavily involved, I can now say that it has been 12 months in the planning even to reach the stage of the announcement.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

See my post #18, Nick. Publishing of each volume will be staggered.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Come on, Chris, you know the format of BoBT&N, and that will be adhered to. What Dilip does, narrative-wise, with his works is unlikely to be in the same format...

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Yes.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

It was published in 1980, Larry.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

The ATB imprint is still being run by P&S, Rob Green having moved from ATB to P&S so that there is someone who is fully conversant with the ATB style and format.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Look Robert, you've criticised everything I've done for years. So back off. You have delivered NOTHING in print, and hung your hat on Larry.

So keep your nose out of this Project, unless YOU personally have copyright on EVERY SINGLE SECTION of BoBT&N from its issue to the public in 1980. AND you copyright on every single piece of updated material now available.

So now that you pet Project has disappeared into the ether, I suggest you contact the MoD, the Deutsche Dienstelle (WASt), BAMA, the Imperial War Museum, the Royal Aircraft Establishment, and myriad other organisations, and claim you have copyright over THEIR material. And Peter Cornwell while you are at it (good luck with that!). And the Weiss collection, that you DID NOT purchase, Larry did. Don't take me on, I know a hell of a lot more than you have ever realised with regard to the EoE Project and collection, and my connection with Larry EVER before you became involved.

Just disappear, you whinger...

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

In simple terms, mars, the update will follow exactly the format of the 1980 edition with regard to losses on both sides.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

The family.

Last I heard, from a VERY reliable source, was that the complete EoE collection was up for sale. I will not state what the asking price was.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Are you thick? You DO NOT have copyright over an RAF loss or a Luftwaffe loss that occurred in 1940.

You are simply not tuned into the fact that MANY researchers have exchanged information for decades. I get the impression that you think that information you have from an official organisation automatically becomes your copyright! EVERYTHING that was found became vested in the EoE Project. It's not yours. That's why the relative of Larry's did not answer my e-mail request to return all that I had physically provided. They're not interested in me, you, or anyone else. Get real!

Jeez!

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

What I meant John is 4 books plus another 7 is quite a bit of money to splash out. Add to that Simon’s Combat Archive series which I think is up to 12 volumes/15 Sep 40………

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

As ever, personal grievances are best fought out off-board, please. This is a really interesting (and unexpected) project and I’m sure that members want to see discussion of it continue.

And John, if there’s anything from my ULTRA and the Battle of Britain research that you want chapter & verse for, I’m happy to oblige.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Not to mention Ian Castle’s excellent books (two so far, covering 1914–16) on the Great War raids on Britain …

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Just a note

You cannot copyright facts, only the way that those facts are expressed

If you could copyright facts then we would all be out of business, the first person to find something out and publish it would own that fact for 70 years after their death and no one else could use that fact without their permission! This is plainly absurd.

What you copyright is the form of words you use to set out the facts. If someone cuts and pastes my paragraph on an aircraft loss they are breaching my copyright. However if they say all the same things in a different way then I cannot complain

There are provisions to stop you picking up an entire book and publishing it under your name just by changing the layout and using alternative words, but the principle holds that you cannot copyright a fact.

Martin

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Well said, Martin. That is exactly the point I was making regarding losses. I hope it will sink in now (not with you - you've already got the principle 100%!).

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Martin,

I've said this before and I'll say it again: No one I've come across online understands copyright law. And no offense to those who do. Pick up any book and there is a copyright notice. The purpose of right to copy means that whoever put that book together cannot have it copied by anyone else. Anyone wishing to quote a portion needs to get written permission from the copyright holder. This does not apply to brief quotes for use in reviews. I would suggest consulting a copyright attorney when in doubt.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Ah, got it now, Chris!

It's why Andy and I suggested doing the update in four volumes, to spread the cost and make things a lot easier on the pocket for the publisher and the punters.

First volume will be the front-end of the book; second volume RAF losses; third volume Luftwaffe losses; fourth volume the back end of the book together with a new section on the Capel-Le-Ferne monument.

That's how it pans out.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Tell that to a certain Polish publisher...

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Please excuse my butting in here, but............I think there is a 10% "Fair Use" clause, at least here in the States, whereby an author can safely "borrow" up to 10% of another author's work without violating international copyright law. I can't remember whether that's verbatim borrowing or paraphrased borrowing or both. In all cases, the "borrowed" passages must be credited in a footnote or source note. There is also a "Material Damage" clause whereby the plaintiff must show material (significant, meaningful) financial damages before the courts would allow a lawsuit to go to trial, i.e., to what extent did the "borrowed" material impinge on the plaintiff's sales and/or royalties.

L. deZ.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Hi,

I don't copyright the facts but I don't want that my research will be published without giving a credit to me. Many information came from private sources. And I'm not a only one.

Best regards

Robert

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

And published by someone, who gave a minimal or no input at all.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Larry,

You bring up the number one reason some people do not understand copyright law: They want free. It's the cost anyone can afford. I understand 'fair use.' As a researcher of things other than Luftwaffe history for over 40 years, I've used fair use correctly. Some online just reproduce photos from books immediately upon release, put it on their blog and are proud to do it. Others expect free, digitized records immediately, oblivious to the time and money involved. It is something I feel needs to be pointed out. The same with text. Why not download something, lift portions of the text and put it on your blog? I'll add that I did read a terrible blog entry about a World war II American bomber that committed a series of errors. The writer did not shy away from distorting the history by adding in his personal bias. Important details were missing, and it lacked important context. It was an amateur with a low level of skill attempting to write what should have been an article that could appear in a proper historical magazine. Some think 'putting it online' is enough. That learning how to do it right somehow gets in the way. Standards exist for writing books or articles. It's quite wrong to think otherwise.

I spent most of the 1980s reading military journals that most people did not know even existed in libraries. Enthusiasm can translate into good writing with some education.

Re: Battle of Britain Then and Now - Update
 

Tell everyone who you are talking about. Don't make insinuations...