P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi All,
Just when you think you have ended the research trail ......
my never ending search for the details of the a/c that 2 Lt Foreman crashed in ,
I have finally the correct date , etc :-

26th Jan 1943 ,
P-38, 42-2886, 78th Ftr Grp, took off from Portreath for Torch .......

but the report seems to have the wrong serial it gives, 42-2886 , :roll:

internet searches give 42-2886 as a Fairchild PT-19A

Anyone any ideas ?? on the correct serial / codes / sub-type ??
Cheers
Jerry

juat a thought
 

Hi,
an extra thought, 67MU records recovering a P-38 , 2369, [no date ]

presumably. Lockheed F-4A-1-LO Lightning, 41-2369 .

would this type be used in torch ? and 42-2886 is a misprint,
would 78th Ftr Grp, be using a F-4A ?

any suggestions/comments welcome, as usual.
Cheers
Jerry

Hi Jerry - I have a locally written pamphlet about Portreath airfield, Ill dig it out and see what if any reference there is to your guy.

Andy.

ps where ie he buried out of interest??

Hi Andy,
begining to wonder if the serial was, 42-12886.

Initially buried brookwood london , moved 1948, to hillside memorial park, los angeles, california.

seems also that on 20th july 43 a was P-38 was dedicated and named after him
Cheers
Jerry

Devon?
 

If he was flying from Portreath (Cornwall) to North Africa, how did he come to crash in Devon, I wonder?

Foremans a/c
 

Hi,

These are the P38's lost in the UK area of operations in January to March 1943 as far as i can find.

They can be illiminated from the search ( You may have done so already).

15th Jan 43
Crashed
P38G 42-12920 Kenneth V. Burnett 13 PS crashed Lancashire, pilot killed.

26th Jan 43
P38F 43-2135 Jacj R. Bbr4own 78FG 82FS.
Crash
P38F 43-2148 Richard L.Rope killed in crash at Albufeira, Portugal on ferry flight.
Missing
P38F 41-7576 Donald S. Beals 78FG, 83 FS.
one of a flight of 9 a/c on a ferry flight to Gibraltar.
Salvaged
P38G 42-12905 Henry L. Perry jr 78FG, 83 FS.
mid air collision over Yorkshire with
P38G 42-12928 Stephen L. White 78FG, 83 FS
Both pilots killed.

15th Feb 43
Crashed
F-5A 42-12774 Earl W.Bierer 13 PS.
Pilot baled over Bucks.

28th Feb 43
Salvaged
P38G 43-12988 Harry H. Vogelsong 78FG.
One of 6 a/c taking off on ferry flight , a/c ground looped pilot safe.

2nd March
Crashed
P38/F-5A serial ? Jerome L. Foreman Unit unknown.
A/c crashed on Dartmoor, Devonshire pilot killed.

It would be great to know the pilots names and a/c serial numbers of those on the ferry flights dated above. How many completed the trip ?

As for the PT19B serial number yes it was .

And 42-2886 , most likely to be 42-12886 agreed.

All for now.

Alex

Foremans a/c correction of earlier mail
 

IHi,

These are the P38's lost in the UK area of operations in January to March 1943 as far as I can find.

They can be illiminated from the search ( You may have done so already).

15th Jan 43
Crashed
P38G 42-12920 Kenneth V. Burnett 13 PS crashed Lancashire, pilot killed.

26th Jan 43
P38F 43-2135 Jack R. Brown 78FG 82FS.
Crash
P38F 43-2148 Richard L.Rope killed in crash at Albufeira, Portugal on ferry flight.
Missing
P38F 41-7576 Donald S. Beals 78FG, 83 FS.
one of a flight of 9 a/c on a ferry flight to Gibraltar.
Salvaged
P38G 42-12905 Henry L. Perry jr 78FG, 83 FS.
mid air collision over Yorkshire with
P38G 42-12928 Stephen L. White 78FG, 83 FS
Both pilots killed.

15th Feb 43
Crashed
F-5A 42-12774 Earl W.Bierer 13 PS.
Pilot baled over Bucks.

28th Feb 43
Salvaged
P38G 43-12988 Harry H. Vogelsong 78FG.
One of 6 a/c taking off on ferry flight , a/c ground looped pilot safe.

2nd March
Crashed/salvaged
P38/F-5A serial ? Jerome L. Foreman Unit unknown.
A/c crashed on Dartmoor, Devonshire pilot killed.
(Note Jerry's new date for this crash - where was your new info from jerry ? and where did you find the serial number ? ).

It would be great to know the pilots names and a/c serial numbers of those on the ferry flights dated above. How many completed the trip ?

As for the PT19B serial number yes it was .

And 42-2886 , most likely to be 42-12886 agreed.

All for now.

Alex

foreman
 

Hi All,
date is now correct for foreman's crash, 26-01-43 , a/c & pilot found 01 mar 43, report from US.
odd as states :-
left Portreath, on his return to UK he was last seen in the vicinity of dartmoor,
so presumably weather or mechanical problems forced him to abort the flight.
think 42-12886 is probably the correct serial and the '1' is missing, or maybe was 43-2886 a P-38 ?
Cheers
Jerry

Alex
have you checked your Pm's
Tony Kearns

Foreman and P-38 loss.
 

Hallo Jerry,

I have never before seen Foreman's name mentioned in connection with the 78th FG or the P-38 renforcements for North Africa.

Have you tried to obtain his IDPF (Individual Deceased Personnel File) from the US Army Total Personnel Command ? Though it will take many months to arrive it should answer all your questions.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Foreman where was he comine from ?
 

Hi,

Foreman may have been returning from the ferry flight to NA due to some problem or other.

Also he may have been ferrying the a/c from Ireland . There is a link to the 78FG there as their P38's I beleive were sent there when the P47's started to arrive. IIRC I got that from "Eagles of Duxford" but not sure now.

Night

Alex

cause of retrurn
 

Hi All,
Been browsing the net, and found interestingly that a flight of P-38's was intercepted by Ju-88's in Nov 42, and one shot down and one returned to cornwall,
So maybe there is another possibility of the reason for return, not only weather / mechanical problems / but maybe enemy action ? This might explain the lack of any mention of radio contact with the P-38.
Seems from net research that the P-38's went first to Ireland for modifications then flew out to NA.
But in this case, foreman for some reason definitely took off from Portreath for the flight.
Also seems a newspaper article in america in '43 mentioned he was awarded the DFC, ( bit more research... )
Thanks all, the trail is closer to the end but not there yet !!
Cheers
Jerry

link
 

Hi ,
link to web page with losses for
42-12905 & 42-12928
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/...2-12905%20.htm
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/P-38%2042-12928.htm
cheers
Jerry

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi All,


A bump from the depths


just wonderng if foreman's aircraft was 43-2369, P-38G-15-LO.


as mentioned earlier 67MU records recovering a P-38 , 2369, [no date ]

cheers
Jerry

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hello,
43-2886 was a Grasshopper.
Alex

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi All
Just a bump incase any new info has emerged over the years
cheers
jerry

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi Jerry!

Rupe has looked into this recently.

Foreman was not alone on this flight, they hit bad weather. I think 2 other P-38s were lost near Portugal (?)

Looks like Foreman turned back then got lost, flying into high ground.

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hello Jerry,
If I understand correctly the date has been reassessed to the 26-01-1943.
So this from my earlier post -

Seems that the 78 FG had a Ferry Flight of 9 aircraft on the 26th.
Not a very successful flight as here are details of five of them.
So if Foreman was a sixth then can we find the remaining three that probably made it to Gibraltar ?

"26th Jan 43
P38F 43-2135 Jack R. Brown 78FG 82FS.
Crash
P38F 43-2148 Richard L.Rope killed in crash at Albufeira, Portugal on ferry flight.
Missing
P38F 41-7576 Donald S. Beals 78FG, 83 FS.
one of a flight of 9 a/c on a ferry flight to Gibraltar.
Salvaged
P38G 42-12905 Henry L. Perry jr 78FG, 83 FS.
mid air collision over Yorkshire with
P38G 42-12928 Stephen L. White 78FG, 82 FS
Both pilots killed.".

42-12886 still looks to be the favourite?

From "Eagles of Duxford", a note about January '43.
'The entire camp took on a happier air as the pilots returned from Burtonwood and Scotland with the Groups new P-38G's.
And
It was necessary to equip some of the P-38s with dust filters for African desert operations. The afternoon of the Chelveston return, several flights left for the Lockheed Lightning Modification Depot at Langford Lodge, Ireland to receive the filters.

The first 78th P-47s arrived on January 29th when four of the aircraft were ferried in from the Air Depot. Two ferry pilots were killed the next day.

Alex

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Jerome L Foreman's 106 page IDPF file can be downloaded from here:

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/ar...media-22344pdf

The file was donated to the museum by Bill Beigel. I am not sure the file is complete as it does not contain the usual pages used to identify the body. The cover page says there should be 114 pages.

A link mentioning Beigel's donation (search for Foreman):

https://www.ww2research.com/news/ame...iles-donation/

Page 2 and page 105 do give the serial number of the plane as 42-2886, so the error was in the original file.



The crash site description in the IDPF file seems to refer to this location:

https://www.torsofdartmoor.co.uk/tor...tor=broad-rock

Nuns Cross Farm is just off the map to the north (drag the map down a little).

Orange mark on Google Maps is the location of Broad Rock. Crash site is 600 yards to the east.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50...!1e3?entry=ttu


Note there is also a thread discussing this event here:

http://www.warbirdinformationexchang...3461&mobile=on

Note that there is mention that 42-12886 was condemned in 1944.

http://raf-112-squadron.org/82ndfghonor_roll.html

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Take a look at Lt.Donald S,Beals MACR, only seven pages but gives details of the ferry flight .
MACR 3210.

2Lt.Donald S. Beals ,O-728959 flying P-38 41-7566 (41-7576 ?) departed Portreath for Tafaroui as one of a flight of 9 aircraft.
Message was received that 6 aircraft had arrived at Gibraltar At the time it was not known if Beals aircraft was one of the 3 unreported.
Page 5 however gives more details.
Departed Station 345(Goxhill) at 1200hrs 21st January 1943 in formation of 16 aircraft led by Major G, Caldwell- Russell. 16 aircraft landed at Station 504(Portreath) on 21 January 1943.
14 of the original 16 took off from Station 504(Portreath) between 0900 and 1000 hrs destination 12 AAF.
Of the 14 aircraft ,3 aborted. It is not known if 2Lt Beals aircraft was one of the aborted aircraft.
Person who last saw the aircraft was Major Joe Filkins,(?) Hq 8AAF who inspected the aircraft prior to departure from Station 504 (Portreath) for North Africa.
So there are some differences, ie flight of 9 a/c turns out to be 16 , then down to 14 of which 3 were said to have aborted. So that would mean that 11 made it to North Africa but only 6 made it to Gibraltar .

Anyway something to think about.
Only 3 aircraft were known to have "aborted " not 4.
If two of the original 16 aircraft did not take part in the flight to Gibraltar/North Africa . Perhaps because of some mechanical problem or maybe lack of the aforesaid dust filters then maybe, Foreman was not actually part of the North Africa flight but was actually returning one of the two aircraft back to Goxhill when he crashed ?

Perhaps another search to find the serial numbers of the 16 and then find which two were left behind ?

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi Phil,
e mailed with rupe a while back, but i am still not sure on correct serial
I remember rupe cleared most of the site up and took to robin's place
the cockpit fuselage was recovered shortly after and taken to harrowbeer airfield
cheers
jerry

Re: P-38 crash Devon UK 26 jan 1943
 

Hi All
Well thanks for the info, seems tgere is still doubt on the actual serial number
cheers
jerry