B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Are there any details of any pilots scoring front-gun kills with the B-25 Mitchell strafer/gunships?

Regards,
...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Hello,
The book “Flying Scoreboards: Aircraft Mission and Kill Markings” by Ernest R. McDowell (Schiffer) do have some nice nose arts of some of the machines you are looking for, however the claims seems to have been made by the gunners, not by the pilot with the frontal and lateral guns.

https://www.amazon.com.br/Flying-Sco.../dp/0897473051

S/Sgt John A. Murphy, from “Tondelayo” for instance, was credited with 5 aerial victories during an engagement that resulted in 4 more Japanese fighters being credited to the crew, on the 18th October 1943. This seems certainly a record for a single combat sortie and single gunner. (354th BG)

Most humbly yours

Adriano

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Hi guys,

this is a fascinating topic but I think "Tondelayo" belonged to the 345. Bombardment Group.

Have a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

If I remember correctly apparently the Japanese only lost one aircraft in the Tondelayo engagement - whoever fired the fatal shots.

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Geoff,

Several 3rd and 38th BG B-25 strafer pilots claimed Japanese fighters and floatplane kills while flying low level missions over the Wewak airdrome complex in 1943. I will be covering the 3rd BG pilots in volume 2 of Harvest of the Grim Reapers (late 2023).

Edward

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

If the planes were shot up while on the ground, by the AAF's own rules, those were not victories, rather mere targets destroyed.

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

I'm talking about air-to-air kills which is the subject of this thread.

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Thank you for the quick responses, gents.

I've been doing background research on the air war over New Guinea, and as usual got totally sidetracked at the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, by random thoughts about the A-20s, Beaufighters and B-25 "gunships". Whereas the A-20s (and P-70s) and the Beaufighters receive a fair amount of coverage in air-to-air and airfield attacks, the B-25 gets much less "page-time". Hence, the question. I gather it's more due to slightly different roles played by the B-25, with its more useful bomb-load at range.

My interest is more with the pilot operated front-gun/side-packet-gun actions, and whether there were defensive fights where the pilots let rip, or night intruder missions where the pilot actively hunted aerial targets. I also wondered if there were any aerial encounters between groups of passing bombers where the B-25 might have jumped at a chance to play interceptor (though that might remain the realm of the comic book).

Edward,
I don't think I really needed another excuse to buy Volume 2! Slowly going back and absorbing Volume 1 after hurriedly scanning through it for mention of RAAF secondees in the early USAAF bomber squadrons. As you said, no mention (sadly) of Roy Goon by name. (By the way, my article on his wartime career in the RAAF was published in The Aviation Historian Issue 42.)

Thanks again, one and all.
...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good morning,

the Marines flew 8390 missions with B-25's designated as PBJ but curiously they scored of kills at all.

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

A few snippets of info from Jerry Scutts' "Marine Mitchells in WW2" on USMC PBJ air-to-air actions:

22 Mar 1944 (around dusk), Maj JK Smith (VMB-413) shot down by 4x A6Ms of 253rd Kokutai.

9 Jun 1944 Lt WJ Hopper (VMB-423) attacked over Rabaul by 2x A6M2. Despite 4 attacking passes, neither IJN or USMC aircraft suffered any damage.

(VMB-612)
8 Feb 1945 VMB-612 PBJ intercepted by unidentified Japanese aircraft near Iwo Jima, but evaded successfully at low level.

23/24 May 1945, VMB-612 makes night shipping raids off coast of Japan, encountering and shaking off two Japanese night-fighters.

(VMB-612 Detachment Philippines)
3 May 1945, Lt Bennett, searching for a downed PBJ, encounters and chases a Ki-21 Sally. The Sally manages to land on Tagoloan airfield before the Mitchell destroys it on the ground. (This is the closest to a recorded air-to-air victory for the PBJs.)


There were a number of undetailed night losses for the PBJs which may (or not) have been from aerial encounters.


...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good afternoon Geoff,

the PBJ flew 7% of the missions of the Marines and dropped 17% of the bombs that the Marines dropped in WW2. I have the OSPREY volumes about it but haven't read it yet.
The B-25 gunship claims of the USAAF were not processed like the claims of fighter pilots, were they ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Hello Michael,
Not surprised by the stats about reasonably high bomb % for the PBJ. Marine bombing aircraft were PBJ/B-25s (2000-lb load), SBDs (1000-lb), Vindicators (500-lb, usual), F4F (200-lb), F4U (500, 1000, 2000-lb ???). The PBJs did a lot of long-range missions, shipping searches, shipping strikes, night-intruders on airfields, and late in the war, rocket attacks.
I was a little surprised that there were zero claims for air-to-air. Would have expected the occasional encounter based on the airfield intruder attacks and shipping raids.

I'm not sure about the USAAF way of processing claims, my own research is in RAF/RAAF and Commonwealth areas; but I would be surprised if it was any different for the USAAF between fighter groups and bomber groups. It should all revolve around the post-mission report, and the calibration of intel data regarding claims, witnesses, etc.
I would expect the fighters to have more gun-camera film. The Mitchells had fixed forward cameras which didn't work very well (not for the USMC PBJs anyway, a lot of shipping claims couldn't be verified).

'Avagoodweekend,
...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good evening Geoff,

my gut feeling tells me that the zero-tally of the PBJ has rather administrative than military reasons. The USMC Avengers flew fewer missions than the PBJ's but had a tally of 19. I think the PBJ crews were not encouraged by their superiors to submit claims.

By the number of kills that his crew claimed the B-25 top scorer was Ralph Wallace, wasn't he ?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=50300

Have a good start into the new week,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

One of the few mentions of air-to-air claims by B-25 strafer-gunships, from the bookazine "Forty of the Fifth" by Michael Claringbould.
B-25D-25 Mitchell "Mitch the Witch", #42-87293, 17th Recce Sqn/71st TRG

25-Feb-1944, during a regular reconnaissance shipping patrol of the Bismarck Sea, this B-25 encountered a Ki-21 armed transport. The B-25 pilot made a firing pass with his 6x fixed 50-cal machine guns, while the observer used his nose-mounted flexible 50-cal. As the pilot flew over the low flying Ki-21, he banked to allow the turret and waist gunners to fire. After multiple passes, the Ki-21 crashed with both engines on fire.

The B-25 crew: 1Lt B.A. Sill (pilot), S/Sgt R.F. Burns (turret), 2Lt W.J. Petersen (co-pilot), T/Sgt E.F. Duffy (waist), 2Lt J.H. Gunn (nose), S/Sgt G. Dixon (waist).


...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Sorry Michael, I don't have your same enthusiasm for cataloging numbers like that. My interest is just curiosity as to whether the Mitchell strafers made any air-to-air claims.
Seems only a few, and from the multiple passes required to down an "unarmoured" Ki-21 Sally, perhaps air-to-air gunnery skills by the pilot, wasn't practiced greatly.


...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good afternoon Geoff,

do you consider to acquire this one?:
https://www.amazon.com.br/B-25-Mitch...a-f477d47705b9

Have a nice week,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Michael,

In England they talk about the RAF and the Battle of Britain. I'm Australian, in WW2 discussions, we talk about Kokoda and the Battle of the Bismarck Sea. Here's a couple of books in my collection (random links from the internet, not actually mine for sale):

https://www.amazon.com.au/Battle-Bis...39988602&psc=1

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/35472404...iABEgKZrPD_BwE


I don't have the one you mentioned, but when it's on special.... it might be absorbed into the collection. :D

...geoff

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good evening Geoff,

I didn't not know that the Englishmen and the Aussies prefer the history of the battles before their doorsteps, respectively. But it makes sense. My favourite topic is an interdisciplinary one: I gather the top scorers of each aircraft type. Therefore, my favourite aces from Down Under are Arthur Coningham (DH5 top ace), Clive Caldwell (P-40 top ace) and Elwyn King (Snipe top ace).

The B-25 was also used by the USSR but the documentation of its aerial victories is rather sketchy.

I wish you a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Coningham, whilst born in Australia, was raised in New Zealand and identified as a Kiwi. I read that in one of Dennis Newton's books.

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Yes, and he served with New Zealand forces in Africa first.
Do the passports/personal files of these days distinguish the different nations of the British Empire or were all British subjects indicated as British?

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Australian Passports circa 1935 & 1955
I have scans of some passports for Aussie flyers of that period of time, and they are quite subtly different.


1935 has on the cover:
PASSPORT
Commonwealth of Australia

1955 has on the cover:
BRITISH
PASSPORT
Commonwealth of Australia

Internally, both designate the document as Australian, not British.

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Good morning,

according to my ADAC Nations Lexicon Australia (1901), New Zealand (1907) and Canada (1867) became independent before WW1 and South Africa (1934) between the World Wars. Were persons from these countries pronounced British before that?

Have a pleasant Sunday,

Michael

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Hi Michael:

The concept of 'Australian citizenship' was only introduced in 1949. Before then anyone born or naturalised in Australia was a British subject:

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-mome...sh%20passports.

The information in the above link also indicates that legislation to introduce local citizenship (as opposed to British citizenship) was also introduced after WW2 in Canada, New Zealand and South Africa.

You refer to Australia pre-1901. Before 1901, Australia consisted of six separate colonies that were subject to the British Parliament. Australia only became a single nation state when the colonies were federated to form the Commonwealth of Australia on 1 January 1901:

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-mome...0and%20tariffs.

Hope that helps

Don W

Re: B-25 Mitchell gunship aerial victories
 

Hello Don,

yes, that's interesting. Thank you.

I wish you a good start into the new week,

Michael