Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Gentlemens!

Most sources mentions 234 FAF ground losses of total 892 planes lost during the May-June 1940 campaign, including some 135 fighters as ground lost. This is about 26% ratio.
But now I am in heavy discuss with one well known person stated 2/3 of FAF losses were on the ground or simply took by Germans in various condition.
What do you think about?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Between 10 May and 9 June 1940, French losses were:

Aircraft type / Air combat / Bombardment / Accident / Total

Fighters / 249 / 133 / 122 / 504
Bombers / 104 / 43 / 64 / 211
Reconnaissance / 57 / 36 / 44 / 137
Total / 410 / 202 / 230 / 852

These are the numbers reported to the French HQ.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Additionally, the Germans captured relatively few aircraft and even fewer in flying condition. You should ask that person for detailed figures as well as a source, chances are he'll have "read it somewhere" and end up with something as "2/3 is what I would expect from cheese-eating surrender monkeys" or words to that effect.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Shikhov,
Well... such discussion is barely without answer because it's mostly related with what you will define as being :
1) a plane
2) a loss
3) a ground loss

If you consider an aircraft as a profiled piece of wood/metal designed with an aero-engine, this figure is very low. The French Air Force had thousands of such pieces and the industry had plenty in the production process still undelivered. Due to the fact that barely half of the territory was overun by the Germans and that in this territory was located the major part of the Air Forces, including assembly lines, workshops, overhauling air force centers and depots, you may deduct that the real figure was several times the number quoted.

At some point of the campaign, the ground has to be abandonned and everything that couldn't be flown to the rear, whatever the reason was, has to be left behind and scuttled if time was available (if people care, had orders, etc.). Consequently, it's easy to understand that the Heere could be credited with many more "kills" than the Luftwaffe even if they collaborated most of the time to achieve this result together (planes damaged in action, interdiction of communications, etc.).

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello!
Many thanks to Mr.Bronsky and Mr.Olivier Bacca.
FAF losses figures on June 09, 1940 are explain some points.
Could you idicate data source ?
Previously mentioned persom is summ loss data from different works about french fighters (air + ground) as follows:
MS.406: 150+250=400
MB.151/152: 97+173=270
H.75: 29+71=100
D.520: 26+80=106
CR.714: 4+44=48
P.631: 13+?=13+
and stated 933+ only fighters lost.
Could you cooment?

Shikhov Igor

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

My source for the figures I provided is the daily loss report that was forwarded to the GHQ of the French air force. The last such report being on 9 June. There are ways to extrapolate losses until the armistice of course, but the ratio didn't change. So this is what is found in the French air force archives, and is also quoted in numerous books e.g. Facon's "l'Armée de l'Air dans la tourmente" (Economica, 1997, reprinted 2006), Buffotot "L'armée de l'Air dans la bataille de France, essai de bilan numérique d'une bataille aérienne", Revue Historique des Armées n°3, 1975 pp.88-117, etc.

They're really not controversial figures, anyone who's done some basic reading on the campaign will be aware of these.

I don't intend to do any work interpreting the figures you provided until I see a source for them. "Various books on French fighters" don't mean anything to me. The figures you mention list *all* losses including those before May 10th, training accidents etc.

I'd particularly like to see a breakdown of the "ground" numbers.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Well, gents, it is difficult to assess precisely as the French ceased to record anything from June 10th on. They had other things to do.
Many ground losses were simply damaged aircraft left over during the retreat southwards and captured by the Germans. You only have to look at the photographs they took on the airfields they overran, in particular at Bordeaux-Mérignac and Aulnat, to see that they put their hands on hundreds, not to say thousands, of aircraft of all types (ranging from heavy four-engined bombers to light liaison planes). In which column must they be sorted out? Are they "ground losses" strictly speaking? The 200+ Morane 406s the Germans captured at Aulnat were damaged aircraft awaiting to be repaired by the AIA. Most of them had been damaged in combat. Thus they are "double losses", once in the sky, the second time on the ground...

I am not sure the figures given by the HQ are quite reliable.
The French have never known how many planes they lost and never will. It would be reasonnable to count by difference, but...
1) debates are still raging over the number of aircraft impressed into service!
2) as for the inventory made in July 1940 of the remaining planes in the non-occupied zone in France and in North Africa, it's a complete non-sense.
As we put it in French, we count them with a "soup-laddle", which means that we don't expect any precise figure.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Gentlemens!
Many thanks to Mr.Bronsy and to CJE!
So, the matter seems not so simple and my counterpart in losses discuss shown abt 1000 fighters lost may be not so wrong.
Of cause I mean losses only due to bombs and shells direct hits, but all captured planes captured by Germans before June 22.
May be some french reseachers has studied another figures ?

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

MS.406: 150+250=400
H.75: 29+71=100


Hi Shikhov,
Most of the work is still to be done as CJE said, but we may give rough numbers. Here is a few sample with rounded numbers of something that might answer your question :

MS.406 production = 1,080 - 60 (export) = 1,020
French inventory on July, 1940 = 570 - 100 (error) = 470
split is :
- Indochina = 10
- Lebanon = 20
- North Africa = 100
- France = 340

Then, losses are = 1,020 - 470 = 550

But if you consider the remaining 340 in France, you won't find more than 120 still fligth worthy. Due to their current state (destroyed, heavy dammaged, dammaged or potentially dangerous to fly) they should be as well considered as losses which would make another bunch of 220 and then, the total would be 550 + 220 = 770 overall, not including another 50 more lost in the colonies (Lebanon + North Africa).

At this point, what would be difficult to answer in your question would be the cause for each loss because many are related to several and not only one like : air combat, ground attack, scuttling, capture, accident, technical or any combination of all the previous.

The loss number is again about twice for the H-75s', a rough figure closer to the reality would be then twice the numbers mentioned with a lot of work remaining to do to address any single case to one or several causes. Then you may add again all other type as well as non-combat airplanes and you will find that the complete figure would be actually very high.

Here is Aulnat where most MS.406 have been regrouped for spare parts and then, discarded from the inventory :

http://moh-ker.9online.fr/france40/aulnat.jpg

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Olivier
IIRC according to old two part article in old Air Internationals there were altogether 815 MS 406s in continental France on 10.5.40, that incl. those in training units and in DATs, probably also some in depots. Some 66 were lost or badly damaged by then in action or in accidents and 60 exported (30 to Finland and 30 to Turkey) and 135 were on Corsica, in French North Africa and in Indochina.
So from these numbers and the number from your message one can also make a following calculation 815 - 340 = 475 and then the "grey area", those 220 out of 340 survivors which were not anymore combat ready. So it seems that some 475 were lost to all causes between 10.5. - 24.6.40. Would you like to comment these numbers?

TIA
Juha

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Juha,

Situations de Armée de l'Air :

10th May - Colonies (135)
- 105 North Africa
- 20 Lebanon (Syria)
- 10 Indochina

10th May - France (815)
- 280 Combat Units Total Strength
- 145 Second Line (as reinforcement or overhauling)
- 145 Training Units (non combat ready)
- 135 Depot (unavailable; non combat ready stock EAA.301)
- 035 Depot (recieving equipment EAA.301)
- 075 Repair Workshops (rebuilding) -> most of them would be lost or captured

Already lost : 65
Exported : 60

July, 1940
- Place / Flyworthy / damaged or destroyed :
- North Africa = 55 / 50
- Lebanon = 15 / 5
- Indochina = 10 / -
- France = 120 / 220
- Total = 200 / 275

I guess you can do the math with that.
:-)

Regards,
Olivier

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hello Juha,

I hope it was helpfull, but let me add something :
Those numbers (rounded) are those from the French archives. But, they have to be cross-checked as with other data. We found discrepancies with other findings. They have to be carefully used as the situation on 20th July 1940 is somewhat inacurate and very difficult to fix.
We didn't do it for the MS.406 at this point and, there is a good possibility that some data are just wrong. But it's the best source I had to show my point (beside the H-75 about which the work is already done by Lionel Persyn, so I won't post the data here).

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Hi,

Just to say in support of Oliver, The Les Butler/Tony Woods luftwaffe Claims lists has for the period 20-9-1939 to 18-6-1940 some 244 claims by Luftwaffe pilots.

The Mushroom book Fighters over France & the Low Countries gives for the period 10-5-1940 to 18-6-1940 a number of 62 lost.
The Butler Woods list for the same period gives 223 as claimed.

Alex

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Pierre Leyvastre who passed away a few years ago was, to my point of view, the most serious and most knowledgeable French air historian. A very discret, almost shy person, he knew pretty well what he was writing about. And even 30 or 40 years later his works is, as you put it, still relevant. A former figther pilot himself of which flying career was marred, then stoped by health problems, he spent a lifetime researching AA records.
Few people know it, but Pierre Leyvastre was the author of the French parts of the William Green/Macdonald magnificent serie "War planes of the second world war" published in the late sixties...

Re: Armee de l'Air ground losses May-June 1940
 

Lucien
thanks a lot on info on Pierre Leyvastre. I have Vols 5 - 8 of Green's "War planes of the second world war" series and I bought them mainly because of the info on French a/c in them. By that time I already had rather good info on British, US, German, Japanese and even on Italian a/c but to get info in English or in Finnish on French a/c was a problem and the info on them in those volumes of Green's series seemed good and I was very satisfied to my buy.Also the article in Air Enthusiast seemed very professional and that was the reason that I tried to memorise the main facts mentioned in it.

Alex
I also had Mushroom book Fighters over France & the Low Countries and my adding produced the same result. On claims, it seemed than some Bloch 152s were claimed as H-75s and also probably some of the numerous Spitfire claims were in fact against D.520s. I mean there were too few Bloch 152 and D. 520 claims so there must have been rather many misidentifications. The target identification was a problem in all AFs and probably still is.

Olivier
thanks for the clarification.

Juha