Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Dear all

I would like to make a model of this B17 to commemorate next year its crash near Toulouse on 25 June 1944 and I look for its livery.

was she painted olive drab?
silver ?
any hint will be welcome;

icing on the cake : a picture of this B17 would be gorgeous..
Thanks
GC

Boeing B17G
Serial 42-102463
8th United Army Air Force
398th Bomb Group
602nd Bomb Squadron

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Hello.
42-102463 was natural metal B-17G-50-BO (built by Boeing), black coded K8-Z (previously 3O-Z) on the fuselage, red upper mid tail with white W in the black circle on top, almost certainly black 2102463 in the middle and letter Z bellow. White was usually used for individual letter on tail at this time. Horizontal tail and wingtips were not red on 398th BGs machines yet, but later 1944-45.

Zoran

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

white W in the black circle on top

Was it not a black triangle?

Martin

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Hello,
Martin is right. Mea culpa.

Zoran

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Gilles there are some photos of their markings here, with some slight variations in application; have you seen the MACR ? Apparently 463 wasn't named.

Regards
Nick

https://www.398th.org/Images/Images_...aft_identified

https://www.398th.org/PDF/History/MA...625_Godwin.pdf

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Gilles, Zoran is right but the red 1st. Wing markings weren't marked up until the 2nd. week of July. This is Drawing 72518 / AC. The triangles were supposed to be black on the red but the 398th had several with reversed marking ie. white triangle outlined black, with black letter. Serials and a/c letter could be white or yellow ( occasionally black).
Nick





https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...dfba1991_o.jpg1st-bomb-wing by Nicholas King, on Flickr

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Mark Styling has done a series of profiles of B-17s.
For what it is worth, this is his take on some 398th Planes. You can click on any image to get a close-up of the nose.

Any comments from the experts here?

This link starts on the 5th page of the images: https://www.markstyling.com/1ad_b17s5.htm
Plane number 42 is from January 1945
Plane number 46 is from August 1944
Plane number 47 is from December 1944

This links to Mark's 8th page of B-17 images. Plane number 77 is from the 398th, dated 1945.

https://www.markstyling.com/1ad_b17s8.htm

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

I'm no expert but as Mark indicated these are post-June 1944 ; I believe the 1st. Bomb Wing notified other Wings that they had adopted red colour markings for their 3 Groups on the 18 July, about 3 weeks after 463 was lost. She must have had plain black tail designators in the 2 months she was flying.

Pity she had no name (as the MACR says) as there would probably have been a photo. Incidentally the red was also on the undersides of wing-tips and tailplanes.

Regards
Nick

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Nick, yes I missed the date changeover, my error.


This photo seems to show a plane before the change, to bad they didn't get a better picture of the plane, but a few things are evident.

https://www.fold3.com/image/29024640...-b-17-flying-f

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Thanks Rolland. These are more clear with pre-colour markings; K8-V is 602BS which Gilles is interested in. She is a G-55-BO and has a retro-fitted Cheyenne tail turret and staggered waist windows. She went to the 398th on May 3 1944.
N7-X is a G-65-BO with original tail gun position, went to the 398th on 13 June. Neither had very long lives.
The 398th's triangle was usually much smaller than the other 2 Groups in 1st. CBW. 42-102565 was one of at least 2 with reversed triangle ie. white with black border and letter. Probably an early (non-authorised) style (April).



https://www.398th.org/Images/Images_...7-K8-V_HA.html


https://www.398th.org/Images/Images_...4406xx_HA.html


Nick

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

43-37527 ( 2nd photo) evidently had the full-colour markings before Eighth AF units were notified that the 1st. Wing was adopting them in mid-July; she was damaged by flak on her 6th mission on July 6 before the IP point and turned back, belly-landing in Kent--note red colours on fin and tailplane, they must have been marked-up between 13 June and 6th July.........


https://www.398th.org/Images/Images_...440706_GR.html


https://398th.org/Missions/Dates/194...0706_OT_DJ.pdf





The mission details were reported by her bombardier. Artwork was a black cat "The Prowler".

Nick

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

I really appreciate your support, guys.

All best

GC

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Gilles if you want to make a model of 42-102463 you would need to know 2 key features ie. tail gun style and position of waist windows, without a photo this is difficult though as she was a G-50-BO the windows were staggered (the right one forward) on the production line; the original tail pattern wasn't replaced at the Boeing factory with the Cheyenne-type until Block G-80-BO though many in Block 50 had them installed at Modification Centres or Depots eg.
42-102464 (457BG), 42-102452 (96BG), and 42-102506 (398BG). One that kept the earlier type was 42-102509 (91BG) lost in July.
For 463 I would go with pre-red Wing colours at least this is how she would have looked when delivered to the 398th; Cheyenne turret and staggered enclosed waist windows with radio-room gun in place (deleted from G-105-BO).

Nick

Re: Livery of a B17 in 1944
 

Thanks Nick, we will do

Gilles