Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Does anyone have anything on this Beobachter who was with KG 51 in 1940? Matti has nothing while nothing on Larry & Doug's lists

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Possibly Werner DoB 29 Jan 17?

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

I don't have anything as such but he has 5 files in the German archives, including the NSDAP & SS/SA archives in Berlin-Lichterfelde.
His personnel file at Freiburg is:

PERS 6/241390
Grassmann, Werner
Bestandsbezeichnung - Personalunterlagen von Angehörigen der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht
Geburtsdatum - 29.1.1917
Amtsbezeichnung/Dienstgrad - Oberleutnant Kr.O.
Unterlagenart - Personalakte
Alte Signatur - LP/69355
Benutzungsort - Freiburg

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Chris,

RL10/652 III./KG 51 Einsatz Großbritannien Bd 1/1 Jul - Sep 1940.

29.7.40 flew in the following crew - Oblt. Rath, Oblt. Grassmann, Uffz. Böttcher and Gefr. Gallerman. 9K+AD departed 22.44 landed 02.48. Operated as part of the III./KG 51 Aufklärungsschwarm along with 9K+ED and 9K+BD. (0011.jpg)

12.8.40 same crew and aircraft again as part of the Aufklärungsschwarm along with 9K+CD, 9K+ED and 9K+BD. Raid was on Portsmouth. This time the name is Graßmann. (0015.jpg)

16.8.40 9K+AD, same crew. Part of the Aufklärungsschwarm along with 9K+CD. Target was Gatwick.(0021.jpg)

25.8.40 9K+AD, same crew. Part of the Aufklärungsschwarm along with 9K+CD. Target was Warmwell.(0033.jpg)

29.8.40 9K+AD, same crew. Part of the Aufklärungsschwarm along with 9K+CD. Target was Liverpool.(0037.jpg)

30/31.8.40 9K+AD, same crew. Sole aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm. Target was Manchester.(0045.jpg)

1/2.9.40 9K+AD, same crew. Sole aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm. Target was Bristol.(0051.jpg)

8/9.9.40 9K+CD same crew. One of three aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the others being 9K+DD and 9K+BD). Target in London.

9/10.9.40 9K+CD same crew. One of two aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+DD). Target in London. (0069.jpg)

10/11.9.40 9K+AD same crew. One of two aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+DD). Target in London. (0073.jpg)

15/16.9.40 9K+AD same crew. One of two aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+DD). Target in London. (0085.jpg)

16/17.9.40 9K+AD same crew. Sole aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm. Target in London. (0089.jpg)

19.9.40 9K+AD same crew. One of two aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+DD). Target in London. (0095.jpg)

23/24.9.40 9K+ED same crew. One of two aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+DD). Target in London. (0103.jpg)

25.9.40 9K+ED same crew. One of three aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the others being 9K+CD & 9K+DD). Target in London. (0107.jpg)

26/(?)27.9.40 9K+ED same crew. Sole aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm . Target in London. (0113.jpg)

27/28.9.40 9K+ED same crew. One of three aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm (the other being 9K+CD). Target in London. (0117.jpg)

29/30.9.40 9K+ED same crew. Sole aircraft in the Aufklärungsschwarm . Target in London. (0121.jpg).

It may be worth looking in RL10/653 through to RL10/665 as they cover III./KG 51 up to the end of May 1943.

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

See Axis History thread A3343 post 20 Sep 2020 (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...1164&p=2289357 in that listing is this entry

Grassmann Werner(29/01/17) 0003-0038 Schupo

If the reference to Schupo is correct this Grassmann was a member of the Schutz Polizie

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Thanks Andy-I have all of this and the details of all of the crew apart from him. Of interest Rath was killed as Kommodore of KG 2 in an attack on Portsmouth in 1944.
Thanks also Hucks for the personnel file details which I already had. Trouble is without a confirmed DoB or christian name, I am shooting in the dark. As I said, no mention on Larry/Doug's list of as a casualty

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Excuse my ignorance

Why did III./KG 51 have an Aufklärungsschwarm?
I can only assume this was for an immediate evaluation of the bombing effort, since why would
III./KG 51 compete with the regular recce-units?

Did all KG units have some kind of corresponding schwärme?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

KG 51 called its Stab I, II and III Aufklärungsschwarm

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Thanks Chris

However it begs further questions

a) Was KG 51 alone in doing this?
b) What was the exact purpose of the Stab? I only assumed the above you know.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

You should all read more ULTRA!

CX/JQ/268

31.8.40

22. Oblt. KUECHLE is attached to an Aufklärungsschwarm at Étampes which is connected to III./KG 51. (B)

25. The Aufklärungsschwarm of III./KG 51, Étampes, was informed on 30/8 that a/c marked 9K+ED would not be ready under a week. (A)

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Perhaps Nick :)

However your particular ULTRA quote does NOT answer my questions.....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

No I have seen this also with KG 4 and KG 26
Junker

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Thanks Jörn

So KG 51 was not alone in this.
For how long did it last?
Did it continue, let's say also in the East and/or South?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

It seems to me that StG units did the same, having Bf 110 attached to their Stab for recon duties. Wether they used them for recon before or after raids, I don't know.

Bomber units of all sides regularly flew recon flights, so maybe it was just a way to have some aircraft and crew attached directly to the Stab for this purpose. Another possibility was that the aircraft were modified for the recon sorties, or the crew had a special training.

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

More ULTRA:

CX/JQ/205
6/8/40

53. On 5/8 Air Ministry informed Luftzeuggruppe W France that re-equipment of Stabsstaffeln with cameras to take photographs (Reihenbilder) 30 x 30 cm instead of 18 x 18, had been rejected for the present. (A)

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

And yet Stab III./KG 51 was known as an Aufklärungsschwarm all through September.....

Laurent
Yes I am aware of the StG using the Bf 110s, thanks

Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

….a and Do 17s

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Ah - yes....:)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

The way I read that message is that the 13 x 13 cameras were normal equipment in Stabsstaffeln by early August but that the RLM did not want to change over to the 30 x 30 size.

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

You mean 18 x 18, or?
These Ju 88 were they the A-5F version?
Otherwise I agree with you Nick. Sloppy reading from my side.....:o
Cheers
Stig

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Yes, sorry.

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Back to the original question, possibly Heinz Grassmann DoB 04/01/17?

Re: Oblt Grassmann Stab III./KG 51
 

Resurrecting this thread, I've just found an interesting document in Bundesarchiv RL 7-3/754: Arbeitsstab V / Technischer Arbeitsstab 31, Bd. 3: Verschiedene Angelegenheiten (1937–1944).

This is dated 26 August 1940 and describes the Do 17 Z-3 as a Stabsstaffel Erkunder (= HQ flight scout). Its characteristics are "As for Z-2 but RB 20/30 and 50/30 on reconnaissance operations".