Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

The war diary (until September 1943) of this pilot is online on You Tube (https://youtu.be/8-08qTJ1-M0) though only in german language.
In general it seems reasonable except for some passages for his time in JFS 5 and Ergänzungsjagdgruppe West which raise some questions.

One (in part 14) is the capture of a Sunderland flying boat flying from Cazeaux on 19.05.42

Kirchmayr´s plane was the only armed Bf.109, he led his 3 students for a Tieflugübung, when a flyingboat appeared with a small corcade at low-level; Kirchmayr managed to force the Sunderland off course with 2 second salvoes (3 times) from the left in front of the plane and showed the pilot to put his plane down on the water in Arcachon Bay, where boats of the KM „Schnellboot“ captured the crew and freight of weapons for the french resistance.

I found no RAF Sunderland loss for that date, nor an entry in the War diary of "Seekriegsleitung"

Does anyone have information about this incident?

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hello Monaco,

Very strange indeed. I don't know of any such Sunderland loss, and their fates are generally well documented. However, a very similar case involves Catalina FP138 of RAF 45 Group (ex-Ferry Command), lost on 7 April 1943. Apparently the crew were lost and when low on fuel approached the French coast off Plougheuneau, near Brest. It seems two - or four - fighters from 8./JG 2 were involved, with Fw. Walter Ebert claiming the Catalina shot down. Three of the six crew on board died and the other three were captured.

Long ago I saved an online article on one of the crew, Alan Rodgers, from the St. Bees village website. It is very good. The excellent history of RAF Ferry Command, 'OCEAN BRIDGE' by Carl A. Christie, has very little on this loss.

Volumes 1 and 2 of the 'LUFTWAFFE ACES' series by Johannes Mathews and John Foreman support the above. Indeed their entry for von Kirchmayr shows him with JG 1 in 1943.

Hope this helps as a start to resolving this little mystery.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hello Martin, thanks for that. I also read an article about that on absa39-45. Also this site provides some details: https://francecrashes39-45.net/page_...av.php?id=3703
Generally the PBY was unarmed for the long flight from Darrell´s Island (Bermudas t/o at 11.00h GMT on 6.4.43) to Scottland. Because of bad weather the plane was re-routed to Plymouth, but missed it. Disorientated the crew found itself at 13.00h over l´Aber Wrac´h when targeted by flak and fighter and pilot Capt Eddie H. Stafford decided to ditch her at 13.45h.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Another suspect entry of the diary is referring to a "Vergeltungsangriff" on Canterbury by Jabos, the entry is from 8.5.42, the order for transfer apparently one week before and the attack ordered for 7.5.42:
Kirchmayr was tasked to lead 8 Bf.109 pilots (two Schwärme) from Ergänzungsgruppe West to transfer to St. Omer to take part on a Jabo mission against Canterbury as a revenge for recent attacks on german cities (Lübeck 28./29.3. & Rostock 24.-27.4.). The formation of Erg. West was to follow two Jabo Gruppen of JG 26 escorted by three more fighter groups; Tiefstflug with 1 bomb in radio silence, over the coast they zoomed up, then AA fire, one Bf.109 to the side lost one wing by a steel wire that were shot into the air, Kirchmayr leading two Schwärme of Erg. West fired his onboard weapons into the town, but was then alone (he saw 4-5 german fighters falling to this wires and flak) when he turned around in a wide curve he saw a tree enhanced road wher lorries were located. He dropped his bomb on them, but hit an „Autobus“; a Rotte Spitfires attacked him from above and the left after he crossed the coast. Kirchmayr flew at very low level, but could not gain more than 600 km/h because of the pylon for the bomb slowing him down. Kirchmayr zoomed up, when the leading Spit pilot dived on him and his prop wash sent his pursuer on the surface of the water, where it bounced back once, but crashed in a small ankle a second later. The second Spitfire then turned back horrifyied.
A total of 4 of 8 young pilots without combat experience of Erg. West were missing, the othe Jabos had also losses. Return to Cazeaux the same evening. The other groups got away unscathed an even reported some victories.

I have found nothing about the attack in Caldwell´s and Goss´s books...
only the following losses:

III./ JG 2; F; Fl.Pl. St.Brieuc; Bruchlandung inf. techn. Mängel; Fw 190 A-2; 125293; 85%; N.N. -
10.(Jabo)/ JG 2; F; Ärmelkanal; Unbekannt; Bf 109 F-4; 7053; bl 9 + <- J; 100%; Uffz. Görendt, Bruno; vm.
III. JG 26; F; Fl.Pl. Abbeville-Druca; Bruchlandung, Bedienungsfehler; Fw 190 A-2 125406; 10%; N.N. -

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Some other questions about Kirchmayr´ personal diary (ending 9.43 and apparentlysupplemented from his flight log by his wife). In 4.45 he transferred to JV 44 from Stab I./JG.11 in position as Hauptmann. Is he the Hptm. Kirchays mentioned Forsyth´s book about JV 44? The list for LftKdo.6 was provided by Hptm. Gutowski after a telephone call (Fernmündliche Rücksprache) between him and Major Schürmeier on 27.4.45.
Can anyone support my assumption?

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

In April 1945 Kirchmayr transferred to JV 44, this unit was operating the jet fighter Me.262 first from Brandenburg-Briest (24.2.-3.4.45), then München-Riem (until 29.4.45) and finally Salzburg-Maxglan (until 3.5.45). According to this diary he scored 13 victories in the last month of the war none of which was officially confirmed. As I believe he was at the beginning of the month still with I./JG.11 he could have claimed 12 on the jet fighter.Are there any possible opponents known?

06.04.45 P-51 FB Nr.92
14.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.93
15.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.94
20.04.45 B-26 FB Nr.95 probably against 323rd BG over Kempten-Memmingen
23.04.45 P-51 FB Nr.96
25.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.97
26.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.98
26.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.99
27.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.100
28.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.101
30.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.102
30.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.103
01.05.45 1 P-51 FB Nr.104

The list war copied by his wife, but it is subject to errors i.e. there are 4 victories listed (over 3 B-17s and 1 B-24) including one through ramming. I found no 8th AF mission for 31 March 1944 (maybe an error of date or fantasy?)

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi Guys

Another very strange one, kind of reminds me of Walter Dahl's end of war claims. John Foreman always thought that Dahl was shall we say a little less than honest(claims to Allied loses information) Whereas I having acquired(post publication) Dahl's Leistungsbuch and in my opinion Dahl didn't make fake claims in the last months of the war, but merely constructed a list, so nothing official, yet he gives an over inflated total of his claims in his 1964 publication. If my aged memory serves me correctly his total has varied over the years, possibly via Ernst Obermaier's publication, perhaps Ernst was fed some made-up data. Other JV44 pilots don't mention any Kirchmayr super-success with them. Perhaps the flugbuch itself if fake, or post-war amended, I think Steinhoff's was amended by Hans Ring, but it could be easy enough to tell.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi Guys

I have scrutinised the "13" and personally think they are made up by somebody. Firstly the only claim that sits well with JV44's claims is as suggested that for 20th April. In all the others they are unique amongst JV44's claims, and those for 26th April are impossible as the KBT papers cover this date, and omit these. John Foreman thought that JV44 claimed an Allied aircraft(type unknown) on 1st May which Kirchmayr could have claimed.

If Allied loss experts scrutinised Kirchmayr's claims we can find out if he was honest or not. Personally I think he probably was honest as I have several abschüßmeldung each giving a different witness, these also give which number claim it was for the pilot, and this indicates a low total.

Also he turns from an unspectacular claimer, to suddenly being brilliant.......doesn't seem likely despite a superior aircraft.

If I were to exaggerate a pilots claims, I would do this for 1945 as there is almost no way of dis-proving it, but Kirchmayr in his lifetime could not have known this (died 8th December 1994)which suggest that somebody else has made-up spurious claims for him, or they are perfectly legitimate, but rememboring the KBT papers, the former is more likely.

I do have an earlier flugbuch for him, perhaps comparing the two might give an answer.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Was JV 44 even active on 1 May? American troops had reached Munich by 30 April. Some of the aircraft that evacuated to Prague may have fought on as part of Gefechtsverband Hogeback but it was all over in Bavaria.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

25.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.97
26.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.98
26.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.99
27.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.100
28.04.45 B-24 FB Nr.101
30.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.102
30.04.45 1 Boeing (B-17) FB Nr.103
01.05.45 1 P-51 FB Nr.104

The heavies of the 8th AF and RAF Bomber Command stopped bombing the Reich on the 25th April 1945.

Though 100 Grp BC were in support of a Kiel raid on 02.05.45, before anyone corrects me

The 15th AF did some sorties, but did not come over the Alps

Anyone claiming a B-17 or B-24 after 25.04.45 (not connecxted with food dropping in Holland) is a fraud.

Martin

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

According to Bundesarchiv RL 2-II/389:

24 April: JV 44 operated twice against Marauders, claiming 2 B-26 and two Mustangs plus 3 B-26 probably destroyed. Losses: 2 missing (inc. Günther Lützow).

25 April: 7 Me 262 took off against heavy bombers in the Landshut area; 4 broke off the operation, 1 crashed, two recalled. 3 Me 262 flew a sweep round Augsburg and engaged Thunderbolts without success or loss. 3 Me 262 took off against Marauders over Landshut, engaged without success, 1 pilot injured.

26 April: 12 Me 262 against Marauders near Neuburg; claim 5 B-26, lose two Me 262.

No more reports after that.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Thanks for all replies,
I would like to attach the victory list, but maybe I´m too old...it does not work with the symbols here.
His disparity in official claims and own in this log begins very early: In his counting 5 by end of 1941 (against 0 official), 8 by end of 1942 (1 official), 15 by end of 1943 (5 official), 70 by the end of 1944 (20 official). In the end he counts 104 (26 official).
It is strange, some accounts fit very well others (especially after 9.43 seem to be fiction).
I will post his claims against VVS in the other section.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi Guys

Good bit of digging/research by you all.

I'll try to establish the facts:-

8th March 1943 P-51 35km West of Walcheren Island 0733 hrs 50 metres, this is recorded as an abschußmeldung paper as the 3rd claim of von Kirchmayr.

2nd May 1943 Spitfire 1,5km North of Kortgene 1937 hrs 3500 metres, this is recorded as an abschußmeldung paper.

11th January 1944 B-17 4km SW Osterode 1130 hrs 6300 metres, this is recorded as an abschußmeldung paper as the 6th claim of von Kirchmayr.

8th March 1944 B-24 2km NW Luckau 1425 hrs, recorded on the mikrofilms

8th April 1944 B-24 SW Salzwebel 1351 hrs 7000 metres, recorded on the mikrofilms.

29th April 1944 P-47 Braunschweig area 1105 hrs 3500 metres, recorded as an abschußmeldung as the 15th claim of the shooter(Kirchmayr) without witness, not recorded on the mikrofilms......I suspect never confirmed. NOTE given later claim number than next two claims, because of continued investigation ? as the 16th claim of the shooter(Kirchmayr), NOT recorded on the mikrofilms.

13th May 1944 P-47 Lubecker Bight 1340 hrs 5500 metres, recorded as an abschußmeldung , also recorded on the mikrofilms.

28th May 1944 B-17 Madgeburg area 1408 hrs 7500 metres v.n.e-a.s.m, recorded as an abschußmeldung as the 18th claim of the shooter(Kirchmayr), also recorded on the mikrofilms.

20th July 1944 Spitfire West of St.Lo 1307 hrs 6000 metres, recorded on the mikrofilms.

20th July 1944 Spitfire NW of Alencon 1335 hrs 2000 metres(without witness a.s.m), recorded on the mikrofilms.

17th December 1944 P-38 North of Trier 1436 hrs 3000 metres, recorded on the mikrofilms.

23rd December 1944 B-26 Koblenz area 1037 hrs 3200 metres, recorded on the mikrofilms.

24th December 1944 P-38 North of Trier 1027 hrs 4000 metres, recorded on the mikrofilms.

Note daily mikrofilm entries start 25th July 1943 and end 5th December 1944. Daily mikrpfilm entries for Stab.I./JG 11 start 17th April 1943 and end 24th December 1944

29th April 1944 B-24 NE Fallersleben 1310 hrs 5500 metres, this is recorded as an abschußmeldung as the 13th claim of the shooter(Kirchmayr), also recorded on the mikrofilms.

29th April 1944 B-17 Fallersleben 1312 hrs 5500 metres, recorded as as abschußmeldung as the 14th claim of the shooter(Kirckmayr), also recorded on the mikrofilms.

8th May 1944 B-24 NW of Celle airstrip 0950 hrs 6500 metres, recorded as an abschußmeldung

NOTE:- Daily mikrofilm entries for 5./JG 1 start 26th July 1943, those for Stab.I./JG 11 end 24th December 1944.

From von Kirchmayr's flugbuch(8th June 1942-14th July 1943):-

30th July 1942 Spitfire Den Haag area 1318-1438 hrs flight.
29th October 1942 Wellington 80km West of Den Haag 1623 hrs......1547-1650 hrs flight.
3rd May 1943 Ventura Den Haag area 1335-1358 hrs flight.
22nd June 1943 Spitfire West of Vlissengen 1032 hrs.....0950-1043 hrs flight.
9th July 1943 P-51 1150-1248 hrs flight.

These five are not recorded on the daily mikrofilms as would have been recorded on the Staffel mikrofilm, which either has not survived, or is yet to be discovered. So these could very well be, or some well be legitimate.

Kind regards

Johannes

P.S The 104 total could be based on the points system of the Western front ? But whatever something is surely amiss with this pilot. Does anybody have the abschuß tafel of 5./JG 1 or 4./JFS 5 ?, or possibly early KBT papers that could shed more light.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hello Johannes, I sent you a PM.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

His own counting started already on 20.9.41:
No.1 20.09.41 Spitfire NW Fecamp; YT (YouTube) on 21.9.41 at 17:27 4(Eins)/JFS-5 FB Nr.1
20.09.41 Spitfire; YT 21.9.41; second Spitfire hit 4(Eins)/JFS-5 FB Nr.2

About this day in his diary:
JFS 5 intercepted a raid against Cherbourg with three Schwärme (=12 Bf.109s) led by Oblt. Zink leading, Oblt. Bohatsch (Obfw. Pfeiffer, Kirchmayr, Morgenweck) and Lt. Seller. Ofhr. Albert(-Rudolf) Morgenweck of the Bohatsch Schwarm was shot up and crash-landed in Bf.109E-7 Wnr.2678 (100% loss) riddled with hits, DOW. JFS 5 attacked from 8500m from above with over 800km/h, dispersing the big RAF Spitfire formation of about 50, then individual dogfights followed. Kirchmayr observed the loss of two planes (one to the right going down in spirals emitting black smoke, one more to the right burning). Kirchmayr evaded one attacking Spitfire by turning and saw another below that was flying a light left turn. He approached the unsuspecting Spitfire to 100m, then the enemy pilot saw him and tried to turn hard right, but he hit the Spitfire with a deflection shot in the fuselage and black smoke emitted from the engine. The Spitfire turned on it´s back and tumbled down burning into the clouds. Kirchmayr levelled out at 4800m. On the way back he was accompied by Albert at 7000m, he radioed „Schwalbe 7 Spit behind you“, Kichmayr evaded the burst by turning down, zooming up and hitting the Spitfire from 30 meters in the oil cooler. The Spitfire vanished with a white stream with his high speed, whilst Kirchmayr was followed by 3-5 more Spitfires. The attack by one Spitfire evaded Kirchmayr by turning hard left and then on the back into other direction into the clouds, then heading SE. When Kirchmayr landed at Octeville (near Le Havre) he noted, that he had taken three hits (maybe Bf.109E-7 Wnr.6511 emergency landing near Fecamp with 15% combat damage). One Uffz. Had been s/d (8./JG 26 lost Lt Dzialas to 20-30 Spitfires of 71, 111, 222 Squadron), one Fw. (Morgenweck) MIA. At18:35 a phone call from a coastwatcher of the Heer from Douville confirmed the dead of Morgenweck.

This recounting sounds possible in terms of names given and location, but do we have evedince in sources of BA for JFS 5?

On 20.9.41 JG 2 pilots claimed 13 successes over Spitfires between 16:36-17:05h (for the loss of 1 pilot, 1 a/c damaged), JG 26 claimed 7 Spitfires between 16:40-17:00h, JFS 5 3 victories (around 17:27). RAF Fighter Command lost 7 Spitfires on 20.9.41:

Spitfire Vb W3179 (Sgt G.P. Hickman, POW) of 92 Sq. RAF FTR from Sweep (p.m.).
Spitfire Vb AB962 (F/Lt L.S. Pilkington, KIA) of 111 Sq. RAF FTR from Circus 100 (p.m.).
Spitfire Vb (Sgt D.G. Harwood, POW) of 111 Sq. RAF FTR from Circus 100 (p.m.).
Spitfire Vb (Sgt I.A. L. Milne, POW) of 452 Sq. RAAF FTR from Circus 100B (p.m.).
Spitfire Vb W3622 (Sgt C.J. Squibb, POW) of 602 Sq. RAAF FTR from Circus 100B (p.m.).
Spitfire Vb P8787 (Sgt W.L: Brown, KIA) of 602 Sq. RAAF FTR from Circus 100B (p.m.).
Spitfire V W3816 (F/Lt R.G.A. Barcley, DFC, evaded via Spain) of 611 Sq. RAF FTR from Circus 100B (p.m.); crash-landed in France after attack by Bf.109.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Thanks Nick, on 26.4.45 according to OKL operational summary aside 5 Marauders one Thunderbolt was s/d down by JV 44, but it has only 1 Me-262 (of 12) crashing, pilot baled out.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

20/9/1941

The Cherbourg raid was Gudgeon 8 and did not suffer any losses

Circus C-100 A went to Hazebrouck in the north - 3 lost
Hornchurch 54, 603, 611; North Weald 71, 111, 222; 12 Group 266, 401, 411

Circus C-100 B went to Abbeville - 4 lost
Biggin Hill 72, 92, 609, Debden 607, Kenley 452, 485, 602

Circus C-100 C went to Rouen - no losses
Hornchurch 402, Northolt 306, 308, 315, Tangmere 41, 129, 616

The circus raids are all roughly concurrent
Gudgeon 8 took off slightly after the circuses did

Prien et al JFV = 4(Eins) JFS5 gives 12 claims (10 Spitfire and 2 Hurricanes) NW of Fecamp and in Rouen areas

Therefore most likely the Abbeville Circus, but at 3/1 overclaim rate for them alone, working out who was successful or not is impossible

35 fighters are claimed by JFS5, JG2 and JG26 in total. 5/1 against it being Kirchmayr

Martin

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Fighter Command claimed 16-1-5 victories. From the times given it seems that JFS 5 fought against 308 Sq. RAF, which suffered no losses, but claimed 4 Bf.109s. Fécamp is located on the retreat route from Rouen, it seems that JFS 5 was sent against Circus 100C at the very end of the operation and the rookie pilots seriously overclaimed.



RAF 11 Group Circus 100A: Rail-yards HAZEBROUCK
15.40 Manston: RAF 2 Group 3 Blenheim IV
Close-Escort Wing:
RAF 11 Gp. 603 Sqn. 11 Spitfire Vb 14.45-16.25 Circus 100A 0 - 1 – 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Hazebrouck

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 603 Sqn. 0 - 1 - 0 Me 109F Hazebrouck

RAF 11 Gp. 611 Sqn. 11 Spitfire Vb 14.55-16.36 Circus 100A 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109E 1 Cat.3m 1 Cat.2 L-BS: Hazebrouck

Cat.3m 20.09.41 F/Lt. R.G.A. Barclay dfc: mia-e 11 Group 611 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: W3816 Event unknown
Cat.2 20.09.41 Pilot: ok 11 Group 611 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: FY- Event unknown

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 603 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Hazebrouck

Escort-Cover Wing:
RAF 11 Gp. 71 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.50-16.35 Circus 100A 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Hazebrouck

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 71 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Hazebrouck

RAF 11 Gp. 111 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.50-16.35 Circus 100A 1 - 0 - 3 Me 109F 2 Cat.3m Fighters L-BS: Hazebrouck

Cat.3m 20.09.41 F/Lt. L.S. Pilkington: kia 11 Group 111 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: AB962 Event unknown
Cat.3m 20.09.41 Sgt. D.G. Harwood: p/w 11 Group 111 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: JU- Event unknown

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 111 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: St. Omer
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 111 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F 15.40 ca: St. Omer
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 111 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F 15.40 ca: St. Omer
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 111 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F 15.40 ca: St. Omer

Summary for Circus 100A on 20th September 1941 to Hazebrouck. Fighters taking part 9 squadrons, 106 sorties, 1-1-5 claimed for 3 lost. Bombers taking part 3 Blenheim IV of 2 Group. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)

RAF 11 Group Circus 100B: Rail-yards ABBEVILLE
15.41: RAF 5 Group 6 Hampden I
Close-Escort Wing: Biggin Hill
RAF 11 Gp. 92 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.49-16.24 Circus 100B 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109E 1 Cat.3m Fighters M-BS: Abbeville

Cat.3m 20.09.41 Sgt. G.P. Hickman: p/w 11 Group 92 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: W3179 Event unknown
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 92 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F Abbeville

Escort-Cover Wing: Kenley
RAF 11 Gp. 452 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.50-16.20 Circus 100B 7 - 0 – 1 Me 109F 1 Cat.3m Fighters M-BS: Abbeville

Cat.3m 20.09.41 Sgt. I.A.L. Milne: p/w 11 Group 452 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: UD- Event unknown

Claim 20.09.41 S/Ldr. B.E.F. Finucane 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: 5 sm. N.W. Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 S/Ldr. B.E.F. Finucane 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: 5 sm. N.W. Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 S/Ldr. B.E.F. Finucane 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: 5 sm. N.W. Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 P/O K.W. Truscott 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: N. Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 P/O K.W. Truscott 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: off Somme Estuary
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: Berck-Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 452 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.45 ca: Berck-Abbeville
Claim 20.09.41 P/O K.W. Truscott 11 Group 452 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F 15.45 ca: off Somme Estuary

RAF 11 Gp. 602 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.50-16.40 Circus 100B 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 2 Cat.3m Fighters M-BS: Abbeville

Cat.3m 20.09.41 Sgt. C.J. Squibb: kia 11 Group 602 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: W3622 Event unknown
Cat.3m 20.09.41 Sgt. W.L. Brown: kia 11 Group 602 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: P8787 Event unknown

Summary for Circus 100B on 20th September 1941 to Abbeville. Fighters taking part 7 squadrons, 83 sorties, 7-1-1 claimed for 4 lost. Bombers taking part 6 Hampdens of 5 Group. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)

RAF 11 Group Circus 100C: Ship-yards ROUEN
15.49: RAF 2 Group 12 Blenheim IV
Close-Escort Wing: Tangmere
RAF 11 Gp. Leader 1 Spitfire Vb 14.58-16.40 Circus 100C ½- 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Rouen

Claim 20.09.41 W/Cdr. H.C.A. Woodhouse 11 Group Tangmere ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen

RAF 11 Gp. 41 Sqn. 11 Spitfire Vb 14.58-16.40 Circus 100C ½- 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Rouen

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 41 Sqn. ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen

RAF 11 Gp. 129 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 14.55-16.40 Circus 100C 2 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Rouen

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 129 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 129 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen

Escort-Cover Wing: Northolt
RAF 11 Gp. 308 Sqn. 11 Spitfire Vb 15.00-17.25 Circus 100C 4 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Rouen

Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 308 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 308 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 308 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen
Claim 20.09.41 Pilot 11 Group 308 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 15.40 ca: Rouen

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi
Is this more less verbatim transcript of the entry from 20 Sep 1941?
I have had a look into combat reports for Circus 100C. Unfortunately, No 308 Sqn reports do not provide exact locations contrary to the RAF ones. Most of the aircraft claimed were Me 109F, only few identified as Me 109E but types were often confused in the heat of battle.
Given that shot down aircraft are reported to either dive or spiral with black smoke, I assume that they may have been shared by a number of airmen or that some identified those losses as an effect of their fire. This would require further analysis.
Anyway, it looks like at least one aircraft spun down or spiralled in the area of St Valery en Caux and this may have been Morgenweck as he reputedly survived but died of wounds more less at the same spot. Another aircraft is reported to dive in the area of St Valery, and I have no idea about its identity. This would be on par with Kirchmayr's account. Yet another aircraft was claimed over the Channel and chased at zero level until crashed on the ground near Fecamp - I guess this could be the 15% one.
I see no obvious claim for Kirchmayr. There is an account of a Me 109 chasing an upturned and burning Spitfire which makes a surprising match. Anoher pilot attacked the Me 109, but did not notice results.
No losses of Spitfires apart of one of No 308 Sqn damaged, and which seems not to match the account. Unless it was an aircraft from Circus 100B which somehow mingled in the combat, I cannot offer an explanation.
Quite a typical mess that cannot be easily explained.
Franek

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi Franek,
yes it is a more less verbatim transcript of the (audio) entry (without dictionary), that anyway should cover the most important parts.
I do agree with everything you wrote, escpecially the last sentence. I could only add some infos I have on this day, first the german claims (Wood as I dont have the volume of the Prien series):

20. September 1941
R.A.F. 11 Group Circus 100: HAZEBROUCK, ABBEVILLE
ROUEN
20.09.41 Oblt. Josef Puchinger Stab III./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.36 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.28
20.09.41 Ltn. Egon Mayer 7./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.38 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.44
20.09.41 Oblt. Rudolf Pflanz Stab/JG 2 Spitfire - 16.40 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.82
20.09.41 Fw. Erwin Liebold: 5 3./JG 26 Spitfire 5 -10 km. N.E. Flugpl. Clairmarais 16.40 Film C. 2036/IINr.88713/42
20.09.41 Ofw. Günther Seeger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire bei Somme-Mündung 16.41 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.83
20.09.41 Hptm. Hans Hahn Stab III./JG 2 Spitfire 10 km. S.W. Somme -Mündug 16.42 Film C. 2036/IIAner k: Nr.29
20.09.41 Ltn. Walter Höhler 7./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.42 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.45
20.09.41 Hptm. Hans Hahn Stab III./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.43 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.29
20.09.41 Obstlt. Adolf Galland: 84 Stab./JG 26 Spitfire Bergues-Bourbourg 16.45 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr. -
20.09.41 Hptm. Johannes Schmid: 32 8./JG 26 Spitfire - 16.45 Film C. 2036/IINr.69278/41
20.09.41 Hptm. Karl -Heinz Greisert Stab II./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.50 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.49
20.09.41 Oblt. Kurt Ebersberger: 13 4./JG 26 Spitfire Mardyck 16.52 Film C. 2036/IINr.88713/42
20.09.41 Fw. Horst -Benno Krüger Stab II./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.53 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.50
20.09.41 Ltn. Wolfgang Wehrhagen 4./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.55 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.95
20.09.4 1 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.55 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.28
20.09.41 Uffz. Richard Übelbacher 6./JG 2 Spitfire - 16.55 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.35
20.09.41 Obstlt. Adolf Galland: 85 Stab./JG 26 Spitfire 6 km. N.W. Bray-Dunes 16.55 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr. -
20.09.41 Ltn. Hans-Georg Dippel: 4 2./JG 26 Spitfire 6 km. N. Wissant 16.55 Film C. 2036/IINr.88713/42
20.09.41 Oblt. Karl Borris: 8 6./JG 26 Spitfire Mardyck 16.57 Film C. 2036/IINr.88713/42
20.09.41 Uffz. Gottfried Dietze: 2 2./JG 26 Spitfire 6 -8 km. S.W. Calais 17.00 Film C. 2036/IINr.88713/42
20.09.41 Fw. Paul Marx 4./JG 2 Spitfire - 17.05 Film C. 2036/IIAnerk: Nr.96

20.09.41 Oblt. Rudolf Pflanz Stab/JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.40 - - yes
20.09.41 Ofw. Günther Seeger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire  Somme Estuary 16.41 - - yes
20.09.41 Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert II./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.50 - - yes
20.09.41 Fw. Horst-Benno Krüger 5./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.53 4 - yes
20.09.41 Lt. Wehrhagen 4./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.55 - - yes
20.09.41 Fw. Paul Marx 4./JG 2 Spitfire  - 17.05 - - yes
20.09.41 Lt. Erich Rudorffer 6./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.55 - - yes
20.09.41 Uffz. Richard Übelbacher 6./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.55 - - yes
20.09.41 Hptm. Hans Hahn III./JG 2 Spitfire  10 km. off Somme Estuary 16.20 - - yes
20.09.41 Oblt. Josef Puchinger 9./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.36 - - yes
20.09.41 Hptm. Hans Hahn III./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.43 - - yes
20.09.41 Lt. Egon Mayer 7./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.38 25 - yes
20.09.41 Lt. Walter Höhler 7./JG 2 Spitfire  - 16.42 - - yes

20.09.41 Einsatz-staffel JFS Nr. 5 Spitfire  RA-4: off Fécamp - - - yes
20.09.41 Einsatz-staffel JFS Nr. 5 Spitfire  RA-4: off Fécamp - - - yes
20.09.41 Einsatz-staffel JFS Nr. 5 Spitfire  RA-4: off Fécamp - - - yes

20.09.41 Obstlt. Adolf Galland Stab./JG 26 Spitfire  Bergues-Bourbourg 16.45 84 - yes
20.09.41 Obstlt. Adolf Galland Stab./JG 26 Spitfire  6 km. N.W. Bray-Dunes 16.55 85 - yes
20.09.41 Lt. Hans-Georg Dippel 2./JG 26 Spitfire  6 km. N. Wissant 16.55 4 - yes
20.09.41 Uffz. Dietze 2./JG 26 Spitfire  8 km. S.W. Calais 17.00 2 - yes
20.09.41 Fw. Erwin Liebold 3./JG 26 Spitfire  10 km. N.E. Clairmarais 16.40 5 - yes
20.09.41 Oblt. Kurt Ebersberger 4./JG 26 Spitfire  Mardyck 16.52 13 6188713/42
20.09.41 Oblt. Karl Borris 6./JG 26 Spitfire  Mardyck 16.57 8 5188713/42
20.09.41 Hptm. Johannes Schmid 8./JG 26 Spitfire  unknown 16.45 32 - yes
Claims 20.09.41 Mss. Goss JG 2, Caldwell JG 26,  for JG 2 are estimated.

Then also some info from Caldwell´s JG 26:
According to that JG 26 concentrated against Circus No.100A and JG 2 against Circus 100B and C, he has JG 26 claiming 8 Spitfires (including Galland´s victories No.84-85 with confirmation unknown), JG 2 13 Spitfires and JFS 5 3 Spitfires.
An interesting note is that of F/O Fraciszek Surma of 308 Sq. RAF after a long, inconclusive dogfight over the Channel with an experienced pilot on the mission: "From my experience on this Circus I have formed the opinion that the Me-109F is superior to the Spitfire V in both speed and climbing power. The German pilots´...tactics have changed as they did not attack from high above, but mostly on the same level"
From this Caldwell draws the conclusion, that "the pilots of the Kanalgeschwader now had enough confidencein the Bf 109F to take on the Spitfires on the latter´s own terms."
For this in general he is surely right, but maybe for the 20 September battle it could have been only the inexperience of the JFS 5 pilots to make them dogfight with the Spits...and the german pilot mentioned by Surma maybe was just a pilot fighting to survive.

Re: Rüdiger von Kirchmayr
 

Hi
Thanks, that is what I have thought.
Well, sometimes, given there is sufficient information, there is a logical explanation. Here, in this case, I would gladly accept, that a number of pilots rushed against single aircraft, actually achieving shared victories. There are some striking similarities. Nonetheless I cannot explain the fact, vK reported two downed aircraft in similar circumstances as reported by Allied pilots, but there is a discrepancy that I cannot explain in the loss list.
Aside, S/L Pisarek's guncam film survivies, and it clearly shows a 109E attacked from a close distance, despite 109F being filed in documents.
Regarding German claims, this perfectly shows a big problem with them. In most cases they lack place, so it is not possible to sort them out between the raids and compare to Allied data. Lack of narratives does not help as well.
Regarding Surma's report, well there is a question against whom he fought in the first place as we know JFS 5 flew 109Es. Was JG 2 involved as well? Was it due to skills of pilots or perhaps there was a modification introduced to German aircraft, giving them more power? Such comments are doubtless interesting, but it is hard to draw conclusions. I recall a report, where pilot stated that it is easy to catch Fw 190 in a dive. Something completely contradictory to what we are used to.
Franek