crashed Ju88 identity
 

I have a picture of a Ju88A that is claimed to have crashed on (or around) May 13 1940 at Jandrain in Belgium, close to Hannut where at that very moment a big tank battle was raging between the German PzDiv 3 and 4 and the French Corps de Cavalerie.

Three crew members were killed in the crash, which left the wreck completely burned out: Uffz Krojewski, Uffz Sachs and Fw Henschel.

The closest possible match I have is a Ju88 of 3.(F)/122, that went missing on the 13th during a mission over North-Western Belgium. But of this machine I have neither crew nor crash location.

Can anybody help to identify this machine?

Pieter

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

I know a German aircraft was shot down on 12th May at Orp-le-Grand, road to Jandrain. This aircraft was shot down by ground fire from motorised French Army (11e Dragon). Can you tell me whether there are markings on the fuselage of this Ju 88 ?

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Montana,

Thanks for your input. Especially the date of May 12 could be important. As I said I had already some doubt as to the accuracy of the date.

The picture shows the completely burnt plane, with only the tail and outer wing sections plus engines left. No unit identification possible. I am therefore already very happy to have some of the crew names.

Regarding the claims of the Dragons Portees: in practice planes that were already hit were often fired at by different ground units on its way down. The unit that fired last before the crash then claimed the kill, although the original cause was often a different one. (Like in soccer, where the player that last touches the ball gets the credit of the goal, although someone else might have given the real shot). As far as I know these french units were hardly equipped with anti-aircraft units, so I expect that the plane was originally hit by britsh or french fighters.

Do you have some indication of the time by the Dragons? That would help a lot for the possible identification.

Pieter

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Pieter,

I know of no loss to 1.(F)/122 on 13 May 1940. They did lose a Ju88 the next day but not the crew you mention. What is the source for the crew names you quote & have you checked them against the German War Graves website ? This at least would enable you to confirm the date of death.

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Hi Pieter,
I haven't found an Uffz. Krojewski killed in the German War Graves website... And Henschel and Sachs are too general as German names. Do you know their first names ?
Sorry, I haven't the time of the crash.
I own a photograph alleged to have been taken at Orp. It's a Ju 88 badly burned with 4 kids standing on the wreck. There is a small marking on the top of the rudder. Maybe it's the same photograph as your.
Rgds.

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Dear Peter, Montana,

Checked the German War Grave site as you suggested. I think these are the names:

• Uffz Helmut Sachse, killed 13-5-1940, Lommel Block 47 Grave 227
• Ufw Heinz Krajewski, killed 13-5-140, Lommel Block 47 Grave 228
• Gefr Ernst Henschel, killed 13-5-1940, Lommel Block 47 Grave 226

As Montana said, there seems to be some marking on the rudder, which I would describe as a stylized picture of a skull. Could it then be a III./KG54 machine, which unit used as their marking? Can anybody confirm they also used this sign - however small - on the tail? Problem is then that I have no recorded losses of a III./KG54 Ju88 on May 13, only on May 12. Is Montana's date of 12-5 then correct?

Pieter

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Hello Pieter

Take a look at this thread and let me know if it's the same airplane

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5683

Phil

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Pieter,

Thanks for confirmation of the full names & dates of death. I have no record of these names nor an aircraft loss on the day that would relate to them, so I will be watching this thread with great interest. I'm confident that someone will come up with some answers. Nice unresolved problem.

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Flupke (my compliments, the best user name on the forum:) )

Yes, that's the one! Same plane, same marking. Do you agree that it might ressemble some form of skull? Wouldn't know what else it could be.
Since you got no reply on your first posting it is apparently not a well-known unit marking. Could even be an individual a/c marking (although I doubt that at this stage of the war).

Peter,

Glad to see I have been able to add something to your very detailed lists! Suppose we need to go through the list of all Ju-88 losses on May 12 (still an option) and May 13 (the formal date). According to my lists that were not too many, on the 13th in fact only 1 plus the apparently disputed Ju88A-1 of 3.(F)/122 which is listed on Andy Mitchell's web-site:
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/html/may40.html

Hope someone can help us further.

Pieter

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Hello Pieter

Thanks for My pseudo it fit perfectly with my personality ;-))

I have a more large picture of this airplane but unfortunately completely burned out, I can send you a copy but you must give your Email (mine is in my profile) the size is quite large (more than 1MB)
May I ask you where do you get your? Mine is with 4 children’s playing on the wreckage.
3 on the wing and one on the tail , a lot of haystacks in rear of the wreckage .

Regards
Phil

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Pieter,

Not added to my lists yet but it certainly has my full attention.

It seems that you have already decided that the photo and the burials are associated ? This may well be so, but I know of no evidence for this. Also, we have assumed that the three dead are Lw aircrew but, again, I know of nothing to confirm that is the case.

I do suspect this may well be an hitherto unrecorded Lw loss & as such it needs to be documented with some care. Recommend a check on the original burial records to establish a) where the bodies were found & b) any other useful information - like an ID number etc.

Checking known Ju88 losses for 12 - 13 May 1940 is a fruitless task. As you say, only one 1.(F)/121 on 12 May & one 8./KG30 on 13 May. I believe you will find that the 3.(F)/122 loss that you mention on 13 May is a duplication for that lost on 14 May 1940.

Where is an expert on German burials in Belgium when you need one ?

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Hi Peter,

You're right, I'm stuck at this point.
The match between this wreck and the names comes from the book "Mai 40 - Septembre 44" by Hubert Laby (in french) which deals with the war around the are of Waremme and Hannut in Belgium.

Personally I have no means to check any specific records in more detail, so we have to rely on other experts.

Regards,

Pieter

crashed Ju88 identity
 

Hi !

The 3 crewmembers in question were initially buried at Thorembais and transferred to Lommel on 5.05.1949.
They are mentioned with the following units :
Sachse : 4.PZ.RGT.6
Krajewski : 4.PZ.RRGT.6
Henschel: 1.LE.PZ.RG5.5

Best regards from rainy Belgium

Luc

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Many thanks Luc. It seems that my caution was justified.

Re: crashed Ju88 identity
 

Luc, Peter,

Thanks a lot. Disappointing in the sense that it brings us back to the start, but good in the sense that the false data has been corrected. Peter's worries were justified!

But this now brings us back to a confirmed wreck of a Ju88 in Belgium, no names, and as most likely date May 12 as mentioned by Montana at the beginning. And still a tail marking that nobody seems to recognize.

To be continued.

Pieter