451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hello to all,

The mission report for the 451st BG notes that on the raid on Steyr on 2 April 1944, they lost a bomber to fighters (41-29245) and another damaged by Flak, crash landed at a friendly air base and was written off. Does anyone know the serial of this write off and who the crew were? I have tried the usual sources without avail.

Regards

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hi Rusell,
I am close to the topic of the bomber war over Upper Austria as I live near Steyr (Molln).
I can probably contribute something to your question. I am familiar with many of the shootings. I'll have a look.
Greetings Markus

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Crash Place should be Tirana:
https://daacda.acdh.oeaw.ac.at/entit...ers/detail/200

Oh, very far away from me
Regards Markus

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Good Morning Russel,

The B-24 you search for crashed near Pecini, 30 Km east of Durres, north of Tirana - Albania. Lieutenant Frank A. Howard / 3 KIA / 7 POW

All the best

Fred

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

I reckon Russell is not after known 41-29245, but after another B-24 that according the 451st BG report made a crash landing at an allied air base upon return from the Steyr mission....Regards, Leendert

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Leendert

You are of course right Leendert. Only women can multi-task. My answer was actually addressed to Markus. And since I'm currently reading Allen C. Guelzo's very interesting work about the American Civil War at Gettysburg, I'm not entirely focused on the matter. Only women can do both.

I`m Sorry….. Fred

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

No worries. Cheers, Leendert

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Russell,

Nearest I have come (so far) are in other Bomb Groups: B-24 "42-7762" of 449 BG/718 BS was wrecked upon landing at Foggia with all crew safe. Pilot Lt. David Rasbach.
And B-24 "42-78084" of 450 BG/721 BS made it to Vis Island and had to be salvaged. Here crew safe as well.
Both had participated in the Steyr mission on 2 April 1944

Regards, Leendert

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hello Fred,

according to the German reports of downed Allied aircraft (Abschuss-Nr./casualty no. ME 979) all ten crew members bailed out. S/Sgt Hewitt and S/Sgt Kusarik bailed out and were captured at Ligist/Steiermark and the rest of the crew at Pecini near Tirana.

Regards
Leo

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Thanks to all who have replied. Leendert nailed it, it's an unknown crew in an unknown B-24. I am aware of the Vis crash landing and the Rasbach crew. One file set I have I have yet to work through was copied by Frank Olynyk some years ago and that was the Air Sea Rescue reports from crews that were picked up. There are details in those that will add to knowledge on losses and aircraft serials, but not this one!

Thanks again

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Russell

Have you gone through the aircraft listed as delivered to the 451BG?
You probably have, but just in case you have not, you should look for an aircraft either
condemned or salvaged some time post the mission date.

Most likely it was a B-24H

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hi Stig I don't know what Russ has found but two that I know of (written off soon after the mission) are
41-28957 (B-24H) condemned May 14 and 42-78165 (B-24G) salvaged May 24.
Nick

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

They are both listed Nick

Only problem with both of them is they were assigned to 451BG after the April 2nd mission,
if the website is to be believed.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

You are right the Record Cards say assigned to Fifteenth AF on 15th and 14th April respectively. I must admit I don't understand some of the notes on them...


Thanks Nick

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Stig and Nick

Thanks for the replies. I had a look at the list and may well try again looking for write offs that arrived before April 1st. Meanwhile onwards with the book. It's getting huge. I had to split the word file into two on Monday, at which point in 22 months of creating it I had spent over 33,000 minutes editing it. I didn't know if I should be happy or sad!.

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

That sounds intriguing Russell.
I suppose if it gets published you should be quite happy - I would....:)

Perhaps it is common knowledge what the book is all about, and if so my apologies, but can you
please enlighten me?
I know you have co-authored a lot, but this one escapes me....:o

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Stig


Working on Vol 6 Med Air War which is Strategic Bombing by the Med based Strategic Forces, that is the 15th and the RAF's 205 Group, with Strategic Recon and the Special Ops as well.

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hello Russell,

From your first post -
"another damaged by Flak, crash landed at a friendly air base and was written off".

If your "unknown" B24 didn't ditch in the sea then it does not seem likely that the RAF and or USAAF ASR would have been searching for it ?

It may have been a B24 that was from another BG or one that was on loan from one BG to another BG.

Nothing noted in the 451st BG book by Mike Hill(Schiffer) which lists all of the 451st's B24's (as far as I know).
It does say that 42-78165 Arrived to the 724th BS in July '44, was damaged by fire and was Salvaged on August 23rd '44.
While 41-28957 "Bigger Boober Girl" arrived to the 727th BS in May '44 to replace 41-29199 " Big Boober Girl" listed as Mia mission 33 April 24th, '44.
Mission 21 was April 2nd '44 to Steyr,Austria.
A 725 BS a/c 41-28806 "Little De-Icer" which arrived to the Squadron in February '44 received Battle damage at some date and was condemned on May 6th '44.
As for 41-29245 (725 BS) it was lost on 2nd April '44 on mission 21. Original Pilot was K,C, Moore. The a/c was lost with the crew of F,A,Howard.

Alex

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Alright Russell
I am of course fully aware that Vol 6 is in the pipeline. I thought you were working on a project
all by yourself. Sorry about that....:o
Cheers
Stig
PS: Looking forward to it BTW

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Alex
This is at odds with 451BG home page which claims:
42-78165 delivered 14 April 1944 and salvaged 24 May 1944
Both can't be correct
Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hi Stig,
Thanks for the update regarding 42-78165.
Had another look in the Schiffer book and found the following, also under the 724 BS section.
Quote -
42-51590:Destiny's Tot: Arrived August 27,1944, to replace 42-78165.
Crashes near Bologna,Italy, April 24th 1945. Original Pilot Gerald Apple. Battle number 24.

So 42-51590 replaced 42-78165 from 27th August 1944 and crashed April 24th,1945.

And as I have already put in my earlier post, 42-78165 Arrived July 1944, was damaged by fire and was Salvaged August 23rd 1944 which fits the narrative od being replaced by 42-51590 from the 27th August 1944.

Joe B's page has 42-78165 Salvaged 24th May, 44 same as you give for the 451st's webpage.

Alex

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Alex

Luckily Geoffrey Sinclair could read the USAAF IARC of 42-78165 as follows (I don't have the card
myself)
"Departed US 27 or 28 March 1944, 15th AF 14 April, lost 24 May"

It is possible the book you quote (which I don't have) has found different data in 451BG files,
no idea, but the above is the official version on the aircraft's record card.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hi Stig,
Have sent you an email ,should have 42-78165 and 42-51590.
Alex

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Got it Alex

As you can see, that is what the IARC says. Initially condemned 24 May and next line condemned aka salvaged 25 May 1944

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Hi

All,

More 451st BG queries.

On 5th April 1944 451st had a B-24 crash on take-off, which killed at least 9 of the crew. There is a photo of the wreck on the web. However, the aircraft serial and the crew names are not to be found, at least by me. Also, the Group mission report, the source of the fact there was a crash, notes a returning B-24 crash landed. I do not know who these guys or the serial was either. I dont not believe it was Wolf Wagon flown by John O'Connor which landed, note not crash landed, with 385 holes in it and was written off as not worth repairing. Thoughts welcomed,

Regards

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Website Honorstates.org provides these nine names for a 451st BG accident in Italy on 5 April 1944:

"We identified 9 casualties in our archive related to the #00-B24 04051944 incident on April 5, 1944.
◼Willard L Cotton :: Pilot
◼James L Crowe :: Nose Gunner
◼Joseph A Esposito :: Engineer
◼Ernest G Graf :: Navigator
◼Sol Marcus :: Tail Gunner
◼Robert E McGaffic :: Bombardier
◼Robert E Quisenberry :: Co-Pilot
◼Charles H Trimmer :: Waist Gunner
◼James D White :: Turret Gunner

All credits to that website. Individual details (rank, crew position, ASN/O-number, hometown...) can be looked up there.

A shortcut here: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...llard-l-cotton

Note there was one survivor.

There is a MACR 15167 for this accident: https://www.451st.org/MACRs/451st%20...20Combined.pdf

Regards,
Leendert

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Our friend Geoffrey Sinclair wishes to add this

4 April 1945, By the time the reports reached AFHQ the numbers were 24 effective, 4 non effective, 6 non sorties, 1 missing, 4 destroyed, 1 damaged by enemy aircraft, 3 damaged by flak, claims for 9-5-1 Bf109, 2-3-0 Fw190 and 1-1-0 Ju88.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Thanks Leendert and Stig, most helpful

Russell

Re: 451st BG B-24 details of loss
 

Not me Russell, Geoffrey! :)

Cheers
Stig