Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Hi,
Has anyone got any information on the possible identity of the Do17 claimed shot down off the Norfolk coast by Squadron Leader Green of 266 Squadron on 27th October 1941.
There is no mention in the Luftwaffe Crash Archive book or in the KG2 diary.
Thanks,
Mike

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

By this time it was Do 217 not Do 17. Seems to ring a bell from one of my books and I can check tomorrow unless some one beats me to it

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Thanks Chris, Green identified it as a Do17, an easy mistake to make.

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

From my book:


As for II./KG 40, it continued to operate predominantly over the North Sea from Soesterburg in Holland against shipping and coastal targets. On 27 October 1941 a Do 217E-2 flown by Lt Helmut Röchl of 5./KG 40 was lost attacking convoy FN537 (consisting of 10 ships without escort which had sailed from Southend the previous day headed for Methil) while another aircraft from 4./KG 40 returned with Fw Heinrich Herrmann (BM) wounded. At around 1430 hrs that day Sgt John Slaney of 257 Sqn claimed an aircraft destroyed off Happisburgh which, at last, was correctly identified as a Do 217:

"A convoy was the main object of attention and an almost ceaseless patrol was maintained throughout the day. At 1314 hrs, Yellow and White Sections took off and at 1406 hrs they were informed that an unidentified bomber was in the vicinity of the convoy. Directly after they saw a Dornier and gave chase. As Yellow Section could not catch the e/a they returned to base. White Section (Sgt Slaney and Sgt Whitmill) saw the Do make a bombing run and attacked as it was about to make another bombing run and shot the e/a down. This was later claimed as a Do 217

However, later that day Sqn Ldr Charles Green of 266 Sqn assisted by Sgt Eric Dicks-Sherwood shot down another over the convoy at 1800 hrs, the aircraft, misidentified yet again as a Do 17Z, caught fire after being attacked, its starboard wing struck the sea after which it cart-wheeled into the water 10 miles off Happisburgh Light; there were no survivors. Lt Gerhard Blaschke of 5./KG 2 reported taking off from Evreux at 1359 hrs that afternoon on an armed reconnaissance off the English East Coast landing uneventfully at Schiphol two and a half hours later so it would appear that just II./KG 40 was responsible for sinking the 4,545 GRT SS Antiope and the Dutch Friesland (2,662 GRT) eight miles north-north-west of Cromer. The Luftwaffe reported II./KG 40 had sunk a 6,000 GRT ship off Great Yarmouth at 1501 hrs followed by another of 5,000 GRT two minutes later and that evening damaged another ship of 5,000 BRT east of Bridlington

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

That's excellent, thanks Chris.

Which of your books is this mentioned in? I own several of your books but they are currently in storage.

Was it a 5/KG40 Dornier that Green destroyed? Are there any details of the crew available?

Thanks

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Only one Do 217 was lost that day and no Do 17s so who got him is not certain. Do 217 E-2, 0326, F8+DN. Fw Hans Kemss-B, Fw Walter Bersch-Bf and Uffz Georg Becker-BM plus pilot all missing. German records state this aircraft was lost at 1215hrs

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Green took off at 17:20 and landed at 18:50, so he didn't get the Do 217 that went down at 12:15.
I wonder if the aircraft he attacked dumped its bombs, the explosion of which he mistook for the crash of the Dornier?

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Entirely possible

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

The combat report references the fading light making identification of the EA difficult. It also states that Green's No 2 broke off after the first attack and didn't witness the EA strike the water.

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Slaney was airborne 1315-1430hrs which also doesn't match with the German time

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Are there missing Luftwaffe records for that day I wonder? Were any other Luftwaffe units operating at that time over the North Sea that could have lost an aircraft? II/KG2 doesn't list any losses on this day.

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

I have no other losses

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

On another note, do you have any records of Ju88 operations off the Norfolk coast that took place on 11th January 1942? 266 Sqn engaged a Ju88 20 miles east of Cromer Knoll. The Junkers escaped but 266 Sqn lost a Spitfire.
Combat took place during mid morning.

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Sorry but no-no German aircraft returned damaged it would appear let alone shot down

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Thanks,
Which of your books were you referring to earlier in the thread? Lots of King’s Cliffe based units were involved in convoy patrols and I am in the process of opening a museum on the site of the old airfield. Hence the questions!

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Dornier Do 217

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

This will therefore interest you Mike:

The first three days of August 1942 saw he and his crew attacking a convoy, an attack on Norwich and a daylight attack against an airfield near Doncaster. It was on this latter mission that they were intercepted by a Spitfire-another Spitfire flown by Plt Off Lindsay Black of 485 Sqn accounted for another 7./KG 2 Do 217 flown by Uffz Erich Beyerer near Kettering. After having machine-gunned vehicles at Brampton and then dropped four bombs at Wellingborough, it was intercepted by two Spitfires from 485 Sqn;

"At 1812 hrs after about half a minute after having seen bomb bursts on Wellingborough, Blue Section saw a Do 217 at about 450 ft. Fg Off Black got into position below and to starboard and as bandit climbed into the cloud gave a long burst with cannon and machine gun at about 450 yds closing to 400 yds. Bandit disappeared into cloud. Fg Off Black told to orbit climbed into cloud and soon saw bandit. He got into position above and behind and gave two short bursts first 100 yds second 75 yds. Ineffective return fire from dorsal and under gun was experienced causing no damage. Fg Off Black turned away and saw bandit start to dive. Between his two short bursts of MG he saw bandit jettisoning an object afterwards identified as a dinghy. Fg Off Black also saw vapour appearing from the wingtips of bandit after his first attack. Following bandit down he saw it burning on the ground."

The Do 217 hit the ground at Cranford, Northamptonshire and burst into flames.

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Thanks Chris, we have a good sized display at the museum about Lindsay and the Do217 he shot down over Northants. We have some pieces of the Dornier on display as well.

With regards to the earlier Dornier shot down by Sqn Ldr Green, your Osprey book identifies it as Werke No. 5326. Has anymore information come to light that might confirm whether Green did indeed get this one?

Cheers,

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Nothing further to add apart from reconfirming one aircraft lost and two claims at different times

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Thanks Chris,
Do you know what camouflage scheme 5.KG40 would have been using during October 41? Would it have been the greens over black or the grey (pirate?) scheme?

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Pirate attacks did not start for another year so guess it would have been standard camouflage. Whether this aircraft was toned down for night ops is another matter

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

I have no record of any Do 217 E in such a WNr range. When M Griehl published his
Do 217 book he did not include anything close either.

What WNr range did 0326 belong to?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

Typo……

Re: Luftwaffe Do17 loss - 27/10/1941
 

So I thought

To avoid having the "scribe" making a double fault I have filed this loss under WNr 5326.

It seems KG 40 was especially prone to report odd WNr in their loss reports.

Cheers
Stig