Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

The above joined the Sqn from 58 OTU at the end of November 1941 and was involved in a take-off accident 12 Dec 41 in AA724. Any idea of his service number or initials? ORB makes no mention and no combat reports. Could have been B Butler

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Hi Chris,

F1180 for AA724 names him as Sgt B Butler RCAF R/66223

Ross

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Thanks Ross. I now have his record of service and it is Basil Butler who was then killed with 249 Sqn in Malta

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

According to Spitfire production lists (book form) and on line AA724 was not transferred to
118 Sq until 2 Jan 1942.
At the time of the accident it was evidently still with its previous unit 401 RCAF Sq.
Any explanation?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Serial is what is detailed in F540 and it would appear F1180

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Interesting Chris

What does its AM 78 card say?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

I will have to leave someone else to answer this as I do not have a copy

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

F1180 for 12 Dec 1941 is marked No.118 Sqn

Ross

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Thanks Ross

I realize it does. What I am trying to establish is why the AM 78 card does not
correspond with the other documents.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

AA724: FF 4-9-41 12MU 7-9-41 401Sq 27-9-41 118Sq Retracted u/c too soon sank onto ground Ibsley AC 12-12-41 Sgt B Butler safe. Hit tractor with wing Ibsley AC 12-4-42 Cdr AD Jubelin (Fr) safe. Westland 19-4-42 Taxied into bowser Ibsley CE SOC 12-5-42 FH46:50

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

The AM78 records pretty much as above, although no allocation to 118 Sqn is mentioned. The relevant bit:
401 Sqn 27.9.41
ROS 18.12.41
401 Sqn 20.12.41
118 Sqn 2.1.42
The fact that it was ROS 18.12.41 certainly supports the idea that it was involved in an incident on 12.12.41. However, 401 Sqn was at Biggin Hill and 118 Sqn at Ibsley, so I cannot explain the discrepancy with the units.

The last bit is not quite right. It actually says:
Westlands 19.4.42
SOC Cat E 12.4.42 (so not sequential)
So there was no separate "Hit tractor with wing" and "Taxied into bowser Ibsley" - it was the same incident.

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Thanks Andy (got the AM 78 form, much appreciated)

I wonder if the fact that Butler was a Canadian could have had something to do
with it?
Could he have visited Biggin Hill and some pals, 'borrowed' the aircraft to return home?
Since it thus was already at Ibsley, perhaps someone thought it was a good idea to
transfer it?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

For completeness

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7cdta...=ugkcg23l&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8owea...=iihxwerf&dl=0

Was handled as a COs Report rather than CofI but sufficient passes for any errors of recording to be corrected.

He was recorded as 1 hour solo on type and having never carried out a formation takeoff.

Ross

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

After initial training in Canada, he joined 22 OTU on 7 June 1941, then went to 104 Sqn 7 Aug 41, then to 58 OTU 15 October and then 118 Sqn on 23 Nov 41. He got just under 30 hours solo on the Spitfire at Grangemouth and had successfully gone solo on the Master before that. Maybe 1 hour referred to his time with 118 Sqn?

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

1 Hr specific to Mk.Vb

Solo hrs at Grangemouth were on MkII.

Ross

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

So his time with 118 Sqn it would appear-he was posted to 118 25 November

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

Digging about in the No.58 OTU.

Course 13 was his course,

The ORB lists officer postings from the course but not NCO.

So also going to No.118 Sqn on 25 Nov were
P/O F W Grosvenor
P/O P B Jones

Ross

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

I would like to make some observations from Basil Butler's RCAF service file:

He was originally being trained as a bomber pilot. As Chris points out, after arriving from Canada he attended 22 OTU then briefly 4 OTU before posting to 104 Sqn. on 7 Aug. 1941. On 15 Oct. 1941 he was posted to 58 OTU (Grangemouth), presumably to convert to single engine fighters. Now here's where it gets more complicated as indicated by the following entries:

Grangemouth to 118 Sqd. 25.11.41
att. RAF Grangemouth from 118 Sqd. 1.12.41
to 118 Sqd. from 58 OTU (amended) 25.12.41

So if this is accurate, Butler would seem to have been with 58 OTU on 12 Dec. Perhaps this only muddies the water further.

Regards,
Tom

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

One thought that has struck me is that Butler may have been detailed to pick up a Spitfire from 401 Sqn Biggin Hill, for delivery to 118 Sqn at Ibsley.

The incident meant that the transfer never actually took place at that time, so the aircraft, after being ROS, remained with 401 Sqn for a bit longer before eventually going to 118 Sqn in ealry January.
So a 118 Sqn pilot flying what was at the time of the incident still a 401 Sqn aircraft.

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

I think we are reading too much into this. F540 says AA724 and Ibsley; Accident Card says the same. Likewise his record of service. F540 records him and Moody arriving 25 Nov 41 and having an accident 12 Dec 41. Clerical errors?

Re: Sgt Butler 118 Sqn
 

I actually think Andy's idea sounds quite plausible.

A bit better than mine....

Cheers
Stig