Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Hello!

On 16.Nov.41 armored train No.2 shot down an Italian plane near Natalievka (Donbass). The crew (Ltn and Sgt) were captured. Is it possible to find out the type of the plane and the names of the crew?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

The Italian official histories are online at archive.org translated in English. I stumbled on to them at believe it or not combinedfleet.com

The RA volume has on 12 Nov 41 the 371 Sqn Ct for several days flying CAS for the 80th Infantry Regiment surrounded in Nititowka by the 174 RD of the RKKA. Nothing else from this period. from the rest of the 22 Gp or 61 Gp flying Ca 311s Could the plane be from another Air force? Like Hungarian, Rumanian,Slovak, German?

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

James, thank you very much!

I have now downloaded all 4 volumes in English from archive.org. Found also vol.1 in the original, but haven't found where these volumes are on combinedfleet.com yet.

Don't know yet. The document says they are Italians.

I was at TsAMO in July and asked in passing if the captured Italian documents are available? Alas, not yet at the moment. I don't even know what is there. But, I think, in the winter of 1942/43 during the defeat of the Italian 8th Army a lot of documents were captured.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Gentlemen

Would it be possible for you to show a bit more exact where these docs are?
At least I am a man with two left hands when it comes to find anything on the internet.....:o

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Not a problem for us left-handed people.

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Hello Stig,

The Royal Italian Air Force In WW2 Vol.1-4:

https://archive.org/details/lra-1-th...8Ver%202.0%29/

https://archive.org/details/lra-2-th...in-ww-2-vol.-2

https://archive.org/details/lra-3-th...in-ww-2-vol.-3

https://archive.org/details/lra-4-chapt.-2-ver.-1

From war diary of 15.SD about the Italian crew (upper strings of page 41):

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/v..._to=17.11.1941


Cheers,
Andrey

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

He,he Nick :)

Perhaps I should have said two left feet then.... :D

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

.....also thanks a lot Andrey!!

Much appreciated!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

The aircraft lost on 16 november 1941 was a Ca.311 of the 119a Sq. Osservazione Aerea. The crew - ten. pil. Giuseppe Lepri, ten. oss. RE Fortunato Rosini and av. sc. mot. Savio Bonifacio - after being hit by the anti aircraft fire, parachuted and became POW: only Bonifacio survived, came back to Italy and soldiered on in the post war Aeronautica Militare.

Please note that the history of the Regia Aeronautica written by Nino Arena is unfortunately not reliable. Italian historians don't use it.

After researching the history of the R. Aeronautica on the East front for many year, collecting pictures, documents, flight books ect., I'm now writing the text. But the way is still long...

ciao

Gianandrea

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Hello Gianandrea,

thank you a lot, and especially for your evaluation of the official history of the Regia Aeronautica. What is the unreliability of these volumes? Is the basic information (OOB, etc.) also unreliable?

I wish you success in writing your book.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Excellent news, Gianandrea! I, among others here, will look forward eagerly to your book.

If I can help you with writing, I would be glad to do so, for example by identifying the various obscure locations on the Eastern front.

Regards,

Dan

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Beside being a bit "wordy" what is in your opinion the main short comings of Arena's books?

After all he must, officially at least, been held pretty high since the books are supposed to be
the official Italian Air Force's view.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

I'm not at home now so I'll write down some example of the unreliability of this history books when I'll be back.

Arena's books about R. Aeronautica had been edited and printed by ItAF but I think without any control about reliability of their contents.

Please note that also "Courage alone" by Chris Dunning is unreliable.
I wrote in the nineties the history of the 155° Gruppo of the ItAF (published by GAE as "Pantere - La storia del 155° Gruppo 1941-2001) and, crosschecking it with the page of "Courage alone", I found that this last one contained at least 10 errors.

Dan, thank you for your offer.

Gianandrea

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Looking forward to that Gianandrea

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Here I am.

I write down only some examples of the errors contained in those books, from the chapters devoted to the air war on the east front because it’s the period I’m studying in these years.

1941 volume

At page 481 the author states that commanders of 61° Gruppo O.A. in Russia were at first ten. col. Giuseppe Chierighini and then ten. col. Tito Ragnelli: the name of the first one was Giordano (not Giuseppe), and he was the only commander of this unit on the East Front.

At the same page:61° Gruppo flew from Bucarest to Tudora on 16 august, not on 11 august

pag. 486, commander of 128a Sq. O.A. in august 1941 was cap. pil. Lorenzo Tomai and not cap. pil. Giovanni Disegna (translated as “Di Mark” because in the italian edition it was written Di Segna…), who commanded 119a Sq. O.A.: so, commander of this last unit wasn’t cap. Bonmartini, who wasn’t a pilot.

At the same page: all the 22° Gruppo flew to Saporoshje on 19 october 1941: in august this town was still held by russian.

pag. 502: Sezione Volo Cinematografica that went to the east front in 1942 operated 1 S.79 (not CZ.1007bis) and 3 (not 2) C.200

page 506, caption of the first picture: gen. Pricolo met gen. Loehr at Nikolajew on 5 october. Because the second officer from the right is col. Drago, who didn’t flew to Nikolajew but stayed at Krivoj Rog, the picture had been taken on 4 october when Pricolo reached Krivoj Rog.

page 507: I can’t check now whether all the figures are correct. One is wrong for sure, in the section “Fighter Bombing (with B.A. – bombe alari id est wing bomb - aircraft)”: C.200 of the 22° Gruppo had not underwing bombs racks, so they could not drop kg. 2400 of ordnance! Only 21° Gruppo got them in autumn 1942.

1942 volume

At page 582 Arena states that 22 january 1943 was the darkest day for the R. Aeronautica transport units on the east front, with 8 S.81 and 24 men lost (crewmembers and passengers). However, the S.81 losses were in total 7 during the whole period december 1942-january 1943, as stated by the last commander of the CAFO in a report that had been published also in “Ali sulla Steppa” by Nicola Malizia: I could check all the losses and they are really 7 for that period. Please note that Arena states that three S.81 out the number of eight had been lost by 245a Sq. during a mission to Millerowo: but this place had been evacuate by Axis troops some days before 22 january. No crewmember was lost on 22 january 1943.

At page. 586, Arena states that two Squadriglie were based in Crimea: they were based at Odessa as were the other italian units, no italian unit having been ever based in that peninsula during the stay on the east.

On the same page, the autor states that 71° Gruppo, when came back to Italy, had some Ca.311 on charge: that’s not correct, it reached fatherland without these aircraft, all dismantled at Odessa.

Andrey, I’m not able to say whether all order of battle included in the book are reliable or not, it would be a very long control work. I can say that the OdB at the date of 1 july 1941 (rectius, 30 june 1941) is correct: please only note that 239a Sq. B.aT was autonomous and that 9a Brigata Aerea Leone included only 15° and 41° Stormo B.T.

I hope I've given you some effective examples.

Ciao

Gianandrea

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Hi Gianandrea,

thank you very much! From the examples you gave, it is clear that these books contain too many errors to trust the content.
It's odd that the official history is so sloppily compiled.

This is another reason to wish you success in writing your book.

I once read some volumes of Ufficio Storico ... La Marina Italiana nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, and they seemed quite worthwhile. I hope they are indeed compiled more conscientiously than Arena's volumes.

Cheers,
Andrey

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Thanks Gianandrea

I presume your book will be in Italian?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Thanks for the info GB. If your book is ever translated into English I will read it one day I will try and get hold of a copy and read it. Are there any other good histories in English that with the RA in Russia 1941-1943?

In the axishistoryforum.com The SU at war 1917-1945 section they have a post on Soviet Armored trains in WW II some got destroyed by the Luftwaffe.

Re: Captured crew of Italian plane 16.Nov.41 Ostfront
 

Andrej,
Yes, AFAIK books edited by Ufficio Storico della Marina are more reliable. I've got only a pair of them and they are very good.

Stig,
Yes, the book will be in italian even though I don't exclude an eventual translation in french and/or english. This option is a bit premature, now the problem is writing the book!

James,
I don't know other english publications about Regia Aeronautica on the east front. About italian operations over other fronts, there are some reliable books, e.g. those ones of Slongo/Gustavsson or Beale/D'Amico/Valentini

ciao
Gianandrea