He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hi guys

I am aware that a number of He111s from the above units crashed in Holland and France during late 1944 whilst engaged in V-1 operations. Has anyone any specific details of locations and/or accounts.

Fingers crossed!
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Ultra HP 887: "An aircraft of 9./KG 3 shot up and ditched at 09.00/17th [September 1944] in Lake Blassemer near Leyden. Varrelbusch informed."

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hello Nick,

This is very interesting - exact location is Braassemermeer - a large lake about 5 miles northeast of Leiden -

I remember seeing pictures (source ??) of the blow up of a German plane in this lake - the eyewitness told me that it was a German plane and that the German blew it up in the last month of 1944 - I always thought that the eyewitness had mixed things up, because at that time the Germans were also blowing up bridges and I was unable to find details regarding a crash in 1944 in that area - well there is now proof of a German plane.

Who has more details on this plane?

Regards
Rob

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Click on the small map in the top right corner

http://www.kagerplassen.info/default.aspx?id=1&sub=0

Dennis

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hi Rob (we meet again!)

The Heinkel was 5K+ET of 9/KG3 apparently hit by own AA fire while returning from a V-1 launching sortie. Uffz Hans Jordens and his crew survived.

Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hello Brian, (yes we meet again - small world...)

Thanks for your input - can add another "new" crash to my "old" crashlist.

Cheers
Rob

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hi Rob

Do you have any information on other III/KG3/KG53 crash sites in Holland July-December 1944?

Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Brian

There is an AIR 40 file at the PRO which gives a month by month crash location for every German a/c in France, Belgium, Holland and later on Germany. This list continues into 1945. I copied all these last week

Tony

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Do you mean AIR40/45?

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Nick

That's the one

Regards

Tony

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Many thanks, Tony, that sounds really interesting. Hope to be at Kew later this week.

Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

From NVM's there were nine losses in Holland, France and Belgium between July and August 1944 from KG 3. In 8th. Oct a He 111 of 1/KG 3 crashed at Groet, on 23rd. Oct. one of 1/KG 53 crashed off Zandvoort and on 5th. Nov. one of 2/KG 53 crashed at Kotwijk. Other crashes occured in Germany and Denmark in the period,
Regards
Brian Bines

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

It's not really true to say that National Archives AIR40/45 contains "a month by month crash location for every German a/c in France, Belgium, Holland and later on Germany."

What it contains is a series of reports from RAF (and later Allied) Air Technical Intelligence Teams on enemy aircraft that were shot down, crashed, were abandoned or captured on territory held or overrun by Allied forces.

You will look in vain for much from Holland because a big area of the country remained in German hands until the last and there is nothing much from anywhere but Northern Germany either. Also they seem to have lost interest in cataloguing wrecked aircraft quite soon after the war ended.

There are however masses of wrecks on British soil, in Normandy and casualties of the Ardennes/Bodenplatte operations. More details on some of these aircraft can be found scattered throughout other 2 TAF files. For Africa, Sicily and Italy you need to go to the AIR23, AIR24 & AIR51 series.

The website of the Luftwaffe Archives Group (www.lwag.org) has more about this topic.

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

According to the loss list of the Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945 the following He 111 crashes of KG 3/53 have taken place in the Netherlands.

26‑07‑1944 Eindhoven/Acht He 111 5K+GT W.Nr.161230, 9./K.G.3. Flugzeugabsturz durch Beruehrung mit Hochspannungsmast. Pilot Uffz. Günter Rohne. Time 0.10 hrs.

31-08-1944 Gilze(Vossenberg) He 111 W.Nr. 16771 of 8./KG 3. Time 0500 hrs. Pilot Uffz. L.Gruber.

19-09-1944 Scharl(Fr.) He 111A-1 W.nr. 610571 of 8./KG 53. Time unknown. Pilot Fw. H.Holz.

07-10-1944 Groet(Heereweg) He 111H-16 W.Nr.160969 of 8./KG 53. Time 20.00 hrs. Pilot Fw. L.Gall.

9/10-10-1944 IJsselmeer(Vrouwenzand) He 111 III./KG 53 100% Bruch.

09-10-1944 Nyemirdum/Kippenburg He 111 100% Bruch. KG 53 Pilot Fw.A.Schmidt.
09-10-1944 Nyemirdum/Kippenburg He 111 100% Bruch. KG 53 Pilot Fw. V.Kappel. Collision between the both.

19-11-1944 IJsselmeer(near Molkwerum) He 111H-16. 100% Bruch. 5./KG 53. Pilot Fw. R.Ripper.

25-11-1944 Texel(16 km. from) He 111H-16 W.Nr. 110304. 1./KG 53. Time 05.10 hrs. Pilot Fw. K.Hillmann.

27-11-1944 Hillegom. He 111. Unit unknown, could be from a TG. No more information available.

Jaap Woortman
Secr. Study Group Airwar 1939-1945.

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hello all,

Regarding 27 Nov 44 - no crash in Hillegom - a member of a German ground unit was killed - Fsch Jg Rgt 15.

On 4/5 Nov 44 - He 111 H 16, W/nr 8540, A1 + GK, 2./KG 53 - near Katwijk - Antennenberührung und Notlandung harten Aufschlag. Feindflug gegen England. Crew: Pilot: Obfhr Karl Heinz Mallach (+), Obs Ogefr Paul Röhl (+), gunner Uffz Karl H Welzel (+) and gunner Ogfr Anton Kartak (wia).

Is there any more data available on 23 Oct 44 crash near Zandvoort?

Regards
Rob

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

All I have for the 23-10-44 is He 111 H16 5K+ER of 1/KG 53 w.n. 161619 crashed ( notwassern) into the sea following engine trouble at Pl.Qu 4355 (off Zandvoort ?) . Bs Ogef Walter Hasler drowned body recovered, rest of crew not named rescued,

Regards
Brian Bines

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Many thanks Brian, Nick, Jaap and Rob - I didn't expect such an excellent and speedy response.

Since you all seem so far knowledgeable than me, are you able to advise the identities of the three III/KG3 crews (plus aircraft markings/WrkNr etc) lost on the night of 27-28 July 1944?

Also, an aircrew member of 7/KG53, Hans Hoehler was wounded and the observer killed (possibly on the night of 3-4 January 1945). Any further details would be most welcomed.

I have further queries!!!!


Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hi Brian (and Jaap and Rob)

You could expect I would show up in this thread :) !

Some small details to Jaap's list:

07.10.44 Wnr 160969
5K+DS hit the Southern antenna of the Sonne-Electra system at Groet-Petten. The exact crash time is 19.29 hrs
FF: Fw Lothar GALL, ErkM 54595/18 (KIA)
BO: Fw Mathias OBERMAYER, ErkM 53452/150 (KIA)
BF: Fw Heinz DAHMS, ErkM 54595/23 (KIA)
BM: Uffz Peter IRMTRAUD, ErkM 71061/586 (KIA)
BS: Obgefr Kurt BUSCH, ErkM 71069/350 (KIA)

10.10.44 Wnr Unknown
exact crashtime is 01.15 hrs. The crew was rescued. The wreckage was recovered after the war, see atttached image.

25.11.44 Wnr 110304
A1+BH didn't crash 10 miles West of Texel (as stated in the Combat Report), but 10 km W of Egmond.
FF: Fw Kurt HILLMANN, ErkM 53543/793 (KIA)
BO: Uffz Rudolf MARTIN, ErkM 215508/122 (MIA)
BF: Fw Ludwig KALBER, ErkM 53543/195 (MIA)
BM: Uffz Jürgen HAUSER, ErkM 53543/196 (MIA)
BS: Uffz Josef FAUERNIG, ErkM 65060/1 (MIA)

Best regards,
Hans Nauta

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Jaap- the He 111 you list at Hillegom on the 27-11-44 may have been one of the two aircraft of 1/TG 30 lost on this day. I have part of a NVM which shows one aircraft w.n. ?422 with Ff.Ofw. Ernst Fiala inj. B Uffz. Georg Lindemann +, Bf Fw. Emil Mohrhardt +, Bd Uffz. Robert Ulrich +. Bw Uffz. Karl Selbach +. The other aircraft was S3+AH w.n. 701399 with Ff Fw. Erich Hamann inj. died on 28-11-44 at Lw. Laz. Frankfurt B. Gef Heinrich Bomholt ?, Bf Uffz Hans Kreuzer ?, Bd Uffz. Alfred Luders ? and Bw Uffz Alfred Haase ? I assume that Ofw. Fiala's aircraft would be the most likely to have crashed at Hillegom.
I believe a He 111 was claimed shot down at 0325 hrs by a P 61 crew of the 422 nd. NF Squadron on the 27th. but I have no more details,
Regards,
Brian Bines

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Thanks guys for the above - all will be acknowledged in my forthcoming book!

Jaap - I notice you have a III/KG53 loss for 9/10 Ocober in the IJesselmeer. I have a note that A1+FN/7000666 ditched in the IJesselmeer on 14/15 October. Is this one and the same? If so, which is the correct date?
Secondly, the crash site of Holz's aircraft on 19 September is shown as Scharl, France. Is this correct? If so, where is it?

Brian - you mention other crashes in Denmark and Germany - are you able to advise me here (in detail) or by PM? I am eager to learn as much as I possibly can. Thanks. Incidentally, the He111 shot down by 422ndNFS P-61 was claimed by Lt Paul A. Smith, who accounted for a V-1 on the same patrol.

Guys - see also my Post No.17 above

More queries to come!

Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Of interest, TG 30 lost 3 aircraft resupplying Dunkirk 26-27 Oct 44 but no locations are given

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Brian,

Scharl(Fr.) is in Friesland. One of the 12 counties in the Netherlands.
(F.) would be France.

Jaap

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Thanks Jaap - I need to brush up on my geography!

Cheers
Brian

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Hi Brian,

With regard to your note of Wnr 700666 (not 7000666!) A1+FN I've filed this He.111 as lost over the North Sea in the night of 5/6th November 1944. The complete crew is still missing.
FF: Ofw Paul FLIR
BO: Obgefr Fritz PLÖGER
BF: Uffz Hermann Andergassen
BF: Obgefr Willi Marr
BS: Uffz Herbert HÜBSCH

This He.111 was probably shot down by the Mosquito NF.XIX TA389 of F/Sgt Neal and F/Sgt Eastwood.

Although I don't know (yet) at which time and which position this claim was made, a German source reported a crashed aircraft at 19.09 hrs local time 2-3,5 km W of Den Helder. It was suspected that it concerned a Luftwaffe aircraft as between 18.30 and 19.10 hrs several aircraft crossed the coast near Den Helder on route to England. Search lights of the coastal batteries illuminated the sea, while 3 vessels searched the area in vain.

Regards,
Hans Nauta

Re: He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944
 

Thanks once again.

I understand that a number of III/KG3 Heinkels were destroyed on the ground at Beauvais-Tille airfield during a bombing raid, possibly on 11 June 1944. Can anyone provide further details?

Cheers
Brian