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- - MACR 16346 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=65839)

Hi All

Helping out a fellow member of Air Britain, can anyone identify this elusive B-17 and its serial number?

MACR can be found here
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/91174084

B Rgds
Stig

I reckon you've found out that crew/passengers were mix of 394BS/5BG and 73 FS/18 FG.

Leendert

Yes we have Leendert

Cheers
Stig

To make things a bit easier for those looking at the MACR, the link is for MACR's 16346-16348.

MACR 16346 are photos 37-20, it was scanned in reverse order. Photo 37 being the first page and Photo 20 being the last page.

Trying to tackle this from another angle, does anyone have any reports regarding the missing
crew?

Some of you are very good at tracking personal details.
The two pilots were
Maj John McBeth O-147827
Capt John Ford O-584114

Since no B-17 seems to fit the bill, could it possibly have been another type?

B Rgds
Stig

Another odd thing about the MACR is the number in the 16XXX range for an aircraft that went missing in July 1942. Almost like it was an afterthought post war.

According to the records of NAS Midway, Flight 220, a B-17 from Hawaii, failed to arrive on 25 July 1942. Searches were flown back towards Hawaii but no trace of the missing aircraft was found.

A few bits of information:

B-17 lost July 23, 1942 on Mission T-5. Pilot Major John McBeth.

"My Uncle John B. Farrar, Jr was lost at sea when this B-17 went down on a secret mission along with 10 other crew members somewhere between Oahu and Midway. I am trying to find out details."

As this is referred to as a secret mission I wonder whether the aircraft was intended to fly from Midway to photograph Wake Island, as another B-17 flew such a mission later in the month?

Thanks Guys

I'll feedback your thoughts and clarifications.

B Rgds
Stig

The Patrol Wing 2 War Diary for July 1942 describes the a/c as a B-17D model. See https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1339...objectPage=107 and following page.

Given the fact that more B-17s were on their way, lost a/c part of a general "secret" ferry flight?

Bios of other missing men provide no conclusive answers as to the ID of B-17.

Leendert

Thanks Leendert

It narrows down the field of research and also confirms it was a B-17

B Rgds
Stig

"B-17D" in that particular report indeed, but (e.g.) accident-report.com somehow says a "B-17F"....
MACR merely speaks of a B-17.

Leendert

Gene Salecker's "Fortress against the Sun" lists all known B-17C/D/E/Fs in the Pacific and their fates; 3 B-17Ds are "unknown" but 2 can be accounted for (11th BG) as can the Fs. The 3rd, 40-3060 was at the Hawaiian Depot early 1942 but probably assigned to unit--Recon? The one in question may not have been, the reference to a photo mission to Wake quite plausable though I image the Navy considered that was their prerogative. There was a shortage of photographers ( especially in the SWPA) and Marines were sometimes called on.
If it was an un-painted B-17D it wouldn't carry a serial on the tail so maybe that's why the mystery. They were being camouflaged with what paints were available in the Philippines and Java earlier in 1942 but only when time permitted.

Nick

Thanks again Guys

I think we can safely discard any B-17F since only some 75-80 were accepted before our deadline
of 23 July 1942

None of those B-17Fs can be connected to either the unit or date in question.

We can also safely dismiss all B-17C, since they face the same problem as the Fs above

A quick search of all D/Es doesn't come up with the relevant date, but I have not checked
them in detail, 40-3060 is a possible candidate. All I have found is it was repaired after its
accident 7 Dec 1941 and went back to 42BS but then all data stops except a condemned date
in 1943. All very vague.

B Rgds
Stig

Hi, have I missed something ?
The MACR states a crew of 11.
But I could only find 10 names listed ?
Alex

Can't help you there Alex

However 40-3060 makes one more appearance before disappearing again.
An Eagle Eyed Air Britain member checked it out and it is mentioned as having an accident
on 5 July 1942 during take off at Kualoha Pont, Hawaii.
I didn't find it myself since the crash site I use (AAIR) had it filed as 42-3060.

The original report (as listed by AAIR) carry no damage code which at least indicate none
was given at the time, which could be interpreted either as AAIR site has missed it or the
damage was so minor that repairs were very quickly done.

So at this stage 40-3060 looks more and more like our suspect.

B Rgds
Stig
Thanks for all your help so far

Knew I recognised 40-3060, 4th photo on here. At Hickam early 1942 ( 11BG ?). Rudder stripes as per Navy practice at the time. So she WAS camouflaged in July. Serials on these painted B-17s marked in small yellow digits on tails.

Nick

https://inchhighguy.wordpress.com/20...heme-b-17c-ds/

By process of elimination:

42-3060

3060 MSN 7996) Douglas Aircraft Company, Modification Center, Air Force Plant #3, Tulsa Municipal Airport, OK 14Jan43. 548th Bomb Squadron, 385th Bomb Group, Dow Field, Bangor, ME 15Jun43. Ferried on the North Atlantic route from RCAF Gander, Newfoundland to Prestwick (Station 500), Scotland 21Jun43. 548th Bomb Squadron [GX*V], 385th Bomb Group, Great Ashfield, UK 26Jun43, Named "Hell's Belle"– artwork of a female with wings riding a large bomb., then to 401st Bomb Squadron [LL*G], 91st Bomb Group, Bassingbourn (Station 121), Cambridgeshire 3Sep43. Named "Hell Belle") Accident on a mission to the Deutsche Schiff- und Maschinenbau Aktiengesellschaft (Deschimag) shipyard at Bremen, Germany 8Oct43 (1WIA). The ball turret door came open causing the gunner to fall out head first. The gunner managed to pull himself back in but became caught in the mechanism. Assisted by the bombardier, the gunner was pulled out of the ball turret. Blood running from the gunner’s forehead had frozen and he was choking on the ice. The bombardier removed the ice and dragged the gunner to the radio room. The gunner survived and eventually returned to duty. Failed to return from a mission to the I.G. Farben chemical works at Leverkusen, Germany 1Dec43 (10POW). Clouds obscured the target so the formation diverted to the secondary target, a non-ferrous metals works at Solingen, Germany. An attack by enemy aircraft damaged engines No.1 and No.4 and both propellers were feathered. The aircraft crash landed in a farm field, uphill on a small hill beside a valley at Boich, five miles south of Düren, Germany. The landing gear was sheared off when it struck a large pile of sugar beets. {6 missions}. Despite crew’s attempts to destroy their aircraft, the Luftwaffe salvaged it for spares within four days Claimed by Lt Karl-Heinz Kempf in Bf 109G-6 of JG 26/II. MACR 1319.

40-3060

3060 (MSN 2088) Accepted by USAAC at Boeing Field, Seattle, WA 7Feb41. Sacramento Air Depot, McClellan Field, CA Apr41. 19th Bomb Group, March Field, Riverside, CA May41. Hamilton Field, San Rafael, CA for preparation for overseas duty. 26th Bomb Squadron [40], 11th Bomb Group, Hickam Field, Honolulu, TH 14May41. 42nd Bomb Squadron. Damaged during Japanese aerial attack on Pearl Harbor at Hickam Field, Honolulu, TH 7Dec41. After the third attack, the plane was loaded with 500lb bombs and set off to find the Japanese fleet. During takeoff, the staff pilot pulled the wrong lever and locked the elevators. The tail came up, the nose went down, scraped the runway as the plane swung off to the side, bending four propellers. Repaired and in commission 8Dec41. 42nd Bomb Squadron. Hawaiian Air Depot, Hickam Field, Honolulu, TH. Condemned 16Oct43

Source: joebaugher.com

A couple of items related to this thread. The pilot who completed the Wake Island photo mission on July 31,1942 was George E Gober:

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/ar...nguished-crew/

The article mentions in the second paragraph that “In mid-July, headquarters at Honolulu called for volunteers to make a third attempt.” I assume one of the first two attempts was the mission we are discussing here, by John McBeth. The other (maybe the first?) attempt may have been by General Clarence Tinker on June 7, who was leading a bombing (and recon?) mission to Wake. Tinker went down within 25 miles of Midway shortly after takeoff and nothing was ever found from his plane.

Link to Tinker MACR (which is 800 not 15097) https://catalog.archives.gov/id/90896765

In the Pacific Wrecks web page about missions to Wake, (both Japanese and American) there are a couple of odd statements in the American Missions section.

https://pacificwrecks.com/airfield/u...ions-wake.html

“June ?, 1942”
“(7th AF) A single B-17 piloted by Major George E. Gober. from the 5th Bomb Group (5th BG), 31st Bomb Squadron (31st BS) flies a solo reconnaissance of Wake Island and made two runs over the island before being intercpted by Japanese fighters and claimed four shot down and one probable during a 40 minute combat. Although slighly damage, this B-17 returned safely to land at Midway Airfield.”

July 31, 1942
(7th AF) One B-17 from Midway flies photo reconnaissance of Wake. The B-17 is Intercepted by 6 fighters; in the ensuing fight US gunners claim 4 fighters destroyed.

I don’t think the “June ?” mission happened. The Gober July 31 mission is being described twice. The same error occurs in this site:

https://www.midway-island.com/chronology-of-events/

Hi Rolland. The Wake missions up to July 31 were...........
Feb.14 recon (B-17)
June 6/7 bombing (LB-30)
June 26 bombing (LB-30)
July 31 recon. (B-17)
The July 25 flight may have only been as far as Midway, with personnel. If it was a B-17D ( as Navy reported) it was likely one of these; the 5BG-11BG status at Hickam on Dec. 8 (in commision unless noted)......

5BG. :
40-3082, 3089, 3085 (damaged), 3092 (damaged), 3071 (destroyed), 3080 (destroyed).
11BG. :
40-3084, 3060 (4 new props), 3090 (damaged), 3077 (destroyed),3083 (destroyed), u/k serial (destroyed).
Details from "7 December 1941 Pacific Air Forces Office of History".

In addition the 38RS had B-17C / Es; the 88RS had B-17Es.
40-3060 was 11BG,and the Group moved to the S. Pacific starting 21 July (98BS). Their first mission was July 30, Solomon Is. Being an older "D", 3060 was no doubt left in Oahu, painted at the Air Depot. Most ops were by B-17E/Fs by this time. The last B-17 lost in the Pacific is believed to be B-17F 41-24552 (43BG) in Sept. 1943 "Listen here, Tojo".

Nick