BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hello!

Can anyone provide details of the loss of the Finnish plane Bristol «Blenheim» Mk.I BL-154 and BL-157 on the 15.04.1942?

Thank you in advance!
Oleg

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

15.04.1942, 2./LeLv 42, BL-154, Varbenitsa
Pilot Kers Laurila, Valto, KIA
Observer Vänr Koivula, Martti, KIA
Gunner Kers Fennander, Uuno, KIA
Explosion of own bomb in the aircraft at 05.00.
15.04.1942, 1./LeLv 42, BL-157, Varbenitsa
Pilot Vänr Peltola, Erkki, KIA
Observer Vänr Hamari, Jouko, KIA
Gunner Ylik Rekola, Yrjö, KIA
Explosion of own bomb in the aircraft at 05.00.
15.04.1942, 1./LeLv 42, BL-159, Varbenitsa
Pilot Ltm Peltola, Arvo, KIA
Observer Vänr Tuulio, Pentti, KIA
Gunner Kers Riutta, Salomon, KIA
Explosion of own bomb in the aircraft at 05.00.

Matti

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Matti

Conflicting information exists for the loss of these three aircraft.
Either shot down by Soviet AA-fire or destroyed by their own bombs.

Was the latter based on facts or simply a theory?
I have seen a report that it was the bombs security pins that had become loose during taxiing
and take off.

Since presumably the other 16 aircraft in the attack force all dropped their bombs safely,
how was this established?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Stig

You are right that there are two conflicting theories of the cause of these losses. In the beginning it was thought that securing pins had become loose and the bombs exploded when hitting the spring loaded doors. This was later found unlikely, because the direction and force of impact could not explode the bombs. Therefore it was suspected that the reason was simply intense AA-fire.
For safety reasons in the future 250 kg bombs were used only with the tail detonator and use of 25 kg bombs was prohibited, Therefore I am using the original explanation of the loss.

Matti

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Thanks Matti

It would be interesting to know if the Finns standard tactics were to fly in a rough formation
during night attacks or if they flew far more spread out?

If the time stated is accurate, the three aircraft exploded more or less simultaneously
and thus the time must have been given by the returning crews.

On the other hand loosing some 15% of an attacking force to night time AA-fire is pretty spectacular,
and I understand if a different theory was thought out.

Since I have not made any general assessment of for instance Luftwaffe losses at night I doubt
they ever came close to loosing that many aircraft to Soviet AA-fire over a specific target.

Did Ilmavoimat ever loose that many aircraft to Soviet AA-fire either before or after this event?
I don't think so....

B Rgds
Stig

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Many thanks, Matti and Stig!

Regards,
Oleg

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Stig

I don't know very much of the bomber tactics, but those three Blenheims flew in loose formation and were exploded simultaneously and therefore it is difficult to believe that AA could hit three aircraft at the same time.

There is another almost similar event on 11.06.1944 when three Dornier 17 Z (DN-54, DN-56 and DN-61) were shot down at 14.00 by Soviet AA.

Regards,

Matti

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Thanks again Matti

Strange isn't it.
Maybe it was problems with the bombs after all?

A really bad night for Ilmavoimat

B Rgds
Stig

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hello Matti,

Where is it? It looks like a distorted name.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hi Andrey

Also I have not found it in the map. In the documents is it written "Varbenitsa" or "Varbinitsa". The bombing target was a logistic center located at that place.

Regards,

Matti

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Maybe the direction is known at least? Leningrad, Svir or Karelia? To make it easier to find Soviet data about this raid.

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hi all, and especially Matti (long time no see).

According to a story in Kansa taisteli -magazine 4/1984, Varbenitsa was located 28 kilometers southeast from Lotinapelto/Lodeinoje Pole.

Best regards,

Raimo

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Raimo, thank you!

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

It is Varbenichi (Варбеничи) ~26 km ESE Lodeinoje Pole.

According to WD of 7.Army, 15.4.42 in the sector of 21.SD [rifle division] 5 Ju88/Me110 were shot down + 2 Me110 were shot down in the area of Alekhovshchina [40 km SSE Lodeinoje Pole]. “Judging by the bodies of the pilots, it was established that the last 2 planes are German”.

According to op.report of 21.SD (07:00 15.4.42), at 06:30 two bomber Kette [2 звена – apparently 2x3 planes] attacked an AA battery in Qu.2960 [~4 km E Varbenichi], 4 planes were shot down by AA fire; 3 airmen bailed out.

According to updated info (op.report of 21.SD 19:00 15.4.42), 4 enemy planes shot down by the 215.AA battery were found 2.5 km SE Varbenichi, and 6 airmen bodies. 4 airmen bailed out, 2 of them crashed and 2 escaped. Two more planes were damaged but were able to fly away.
Alas, that's all I could find on a quick look without getting out of my chair.

Based on the data above, there were 6 downed planes found on the ground, 4 of them near Varbenichi and 2 German near Alekhovshchina. Am I correct in understanding that only the loss of 3 Blenheims is known?
And is anything known about damage to other Blenheims?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Excellent update Andrey

According to Keskinen/Stenman in Suomen Ilmavoimat 1942, it was a huge effort by the Finns.
Nine Do 17 Z from LLv 46 were the first over the target (no losses) followed by
initially three Blenheims,
from LLv 42, one lost at 04.58H (BL-154)
They were followed by four more Blenheims from the same unit which lost two at 05.02H (BL-157 and -159)
There is no report of any German involvement in the book.

The suspicion that the bombs were the reason came from one aircraft (BL-109) which returned with a
faulty bomb where the bomb rack was broken and the plug of the trigger bar was off.
However just as Mattis said the final conclusion was that this could not have caused the bombs
to explode prematurely and very heavy defensive AA-fire was most likely the cause.

The Finns suffered no more losses that day.

Sorry I didn't look inside that book until today. We have one room getting new wallpaper and
a freshly painted ceiling so I have great difficulty in reaching any books right now....:o

B Rgds
Stig

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Stig, thank you for additional info.

Apparently, the 48.OZAD PVO participated in the same events, fired at 6 Me110 and claimed 3 of them shot down at 05:00 msk [?].

At 16:00 air observation warning and communication service [ВНОС = VNOS] of 7.Army reported to 48.OZAD that one Me110 was found near Lyashozero [a lake 26 km SSW Varbenichi].

At 23:30 16.4.42 an entry was made in WD of 48.OZAD: the Me-110 planes [the remaining 2 or all 3?], shot down by Lt Kolesnik, fell 5 km S of Pechenitsy [5.5 km OSO Varbenichi]. 5 airmen KIA, 1 POW [!].

Thus, so far only low-level documents have been found. Among them there are none from those who inspected the downed planes (it is known that they removed 4 MG, maps and documents from the planes).

The real aircraft models are unclear. It is unclear whether it was only the Finnish raid, or there were also German Bf110s (maybe at a slightly different time and in a slightly different place). When/if I visit TsAMO again, I'll try to look at the documents of AA Defense and intel.dept of 7.Army. Unless, of course, other Russian forum members who are familiar with these events tell us what happened.

Perhaps Matti can tell if there were German losses in the area in question on 15.4.42 or days close to that date.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Google Maps does not show the exact place where this Varbenichi was located, but Lodeinoje Pole
is on the southern banks of the River Svir and was a logistics center.

The aim of the attack was obviously to disrupt a Soviet offensive crossing the river.

The book mentions an attack by three Soviet fighters against BL-152 but no damage is reported by
the authors.

If the Luftwaffe had the capacity to help with additional bombers that night is unknown to me.
To use fighter escort at night is rather pointless so I doubt any Bf 110s were there. Feels rather
like the Soviet fighters saw the twin tails of the Finnish Do 17s

As far as I can determine there were no German nightfighters present (no losses or claims) so
bottom line seems to me that both the Soviet fighters and AA-fire claims the same aircraft based upon
the visible explosions.

Overclaiming was usual during the war and no doubt overestimating the debris found on the
ground could explain the "six" located crashed aircraft, unless of course the Germans suffered three
losses as well

B Rgds
Stig

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

I have not found any Luftwaffe Bf 110 lost in April 1942 in the East (Lfl. 1). The explanation given by Stig seems plausible to me.

Regards,

Matti

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hello Stig and Matti,

thank you for additional info.

Undoubtedly, overclaims are always possible and most likely took place. But, usually, reports of aircraft wrecks are reliable.

However, in this case, all the data that could be found are preliminary, and they partially contradict each other. I also wonder if anyone was really captured.

I am less familiar with this sector of the front.
Anyway, I'll check it out at the TsAMO on occasion.
At the same time, I'll see what kind of AA guns were in these units.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

I have another possible cause for the loss of BL-157 and BL-159 they collided possibly after one was hit by flak.

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hello James,

Maybe, but in this case it hardly changes anything.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

And about whether it was a night raid.

According to WD of 48.OZAD, it seems that AA gunners saw the planes, and the searchlights were not mentioned. The time was from 04:58 (1st alarm) to 05:05 msk, when two ball-shaped flashes appeared above one of the planes.

Finland switched to summer time at midnight on 2/3.Apr.42 and, as far as I know, Finnish time became equal to Moscow time. Is this correct? And is it possible to visually see a plane at 05:00 at that latitude on April 15?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: BL-154 and BL-157
 

Hi!

There was no Me 110 anywhere near the incident. Bomber types were Do 17Z and Blenheims. All Finnish, rest is Soviet confusion one can ignore.

Matti Hämäläinen has written two-three books about Lentolaivue 42. In one of these he writes Blenheim guys were angry because Do 17 going in first did so against orders and at the same altitude and speed. When BLs arrived, Soviets were all set and more so for the later group which lost two.
Bad tactics applied (against plans even?) allowing Soviet AAA time to get their sights really ready.
This is my recollection of a book. Right now several hundred kilometers away from those, so cannot check.

Cheers,
Kari