303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

According to some published material, the first 4 engine bomber shot down by a Me262 was a B-17 on August 15,1944/ The victorious pilot was Fw Helmut Lennartz. Any ideas as to ID of this B-17?

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Nine 303 BG B17's lost on August 15th 1944.
MACR's -
8168, 8169, 8170, 8171, 8172, 8437, 8438, 8439, 8440.
Alex

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

I believe that one is generally accepted as being 42-31183/BN-J "Bad Penny" of 359th BS, 303rd BG." 2/Lt. Arthur L Gross and 6 others were taken POW, 2 crewmen were murdered on the ground. It's said that the crew had baled out long before Lennartz fired at it

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Thanks Nick! I started reading through the MACRs but did not finish.

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

No problem, always happy to help and very glad to have provided you with a short cut

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hello guys

ALLEGEDLY shot down (42-31183) by Lennartz!...by whom? and on the basis of what?

Lennartz is not credited with any victory this day ....at least officially.

michel

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hi Michel,
I don't think anyone here was stating that the information here is for absolute certain. The MACR clearly states they were having a running battle with aircraft identified as Focke Wulfs. If memory serves, the best source for the Lennart claim would be Boehme's old JG 7 book, and I don't claim that it's anything other than authoritative for its time...


http://www.303rdbg.com/MACR/08170.pdf
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/91048539

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hello Nick,

according to Boehme’s JG 7 book (1st edition, pages 65/66) Ofw Lennartz has shot down not a pilotless B-17 near Stuttgart.
According to the victory table of the EKdo 262 in JFV Vol. 13/VI this claim was not confirmed.
In the final report of downings on 15 Aug 1944 (SSD distance message of Luftgaukommando VII/Ic L 2 dated 22 Aug 1944) you find the casualty-no./Abschußnummer KU 2739. In the KU 2739 file is noted 13.30 hrs B-17 loss 2,5 km south of Gerlingen district Leonberg, 12 km west of Stuttgart, 99 % destruction, debris scattered in a distance of 30 m, fire caused by crash, markings not ascertainable, disposition of the crew unknown, probably dead under the debris. Downing claimed by antiaircraft.

Regards
Leo

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hello

B-17 (other?) shot down in the Stuttgart region by Flak,wich one would it be?

I have this as information:
43-37838 crash Reims/France
42-102411 crash Maldberg/Killburg area
42-31224 crash Adenau/Killburg area
42-31183 crash Matzen-Bittburg/Killburg area
44-6291 crash Orsfeld-Bittburg/Killburg area
44-6086 crash Seffern-Bittburg/Killburg area
42-102680 crash Wittlich/Killburg area
41-102432 crash Bittburg/Killburg area
42-97085 crash Oberkail/Killburg area

+ one damaged beyond repair (scrapped) with no infos about his serial

Michel

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

In the JG-7 book, it is reported that Professor Messerschmitt was informed on the downing of the first four engine bomber shoot down by a Me-262 and congratulated Lennartz when he landed.

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hello Michel,

I have the following crash locations and casualty numbers:
43-37838 13.00 emergency landing 1 km S of Beine, 13 km E of Reims (KU 2744)
42-102411 was battle damaged on 18 Mar 1945!
42-31224 11.30 1 km NE Adenau (KU 2782)
42-31183 12.00 near Wittlich (KU 902A)
44-6291 12.00 1 km N Orsfeld, 9 km NE Bitburg (KU 2754)
44-6086 11.40 Seffern, 9 km N Bitburg (KU 2755)
42-102680 11.00 1 km NW Rommersheim, 3 km SE Prüm (KU 2752)
42-102432 12.00 Malberg, 8 km NE Bitburg (KU 2756)
42-97085 12.15 1 km W Ürzig, 7 km E of Wittlich (KU 2753)
and
42-31423 11.30 N Oberkail, 14 km NE Bitburg (KU 2751)

Regards
Leo

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Thank you for the corrections and clarifications.

This story is complicated.
congratulation for a "victory" which cannot be indentified and not approuved!!

Date error and confusion with 07/10/44?

Regards michel

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

It's certainly interesting...
The MACR citing Focke Wulfs and the KU attributing to Flak....

Re: 303rd BG B-17 lost on August 15,1944 to Me262
 

Hello,
all this B-17 from 303rd BG shoot down by JG 3/JG 300. The aera is close to Trier/Moselle. The late Horst Weber and me research the airbattle during 1995-2000 and we have found the crashplaces from all (exept the one in Reims/France).
Bests,
h.